Thursday, October 27, 2011

The Human Self

‎"The human self by itself can only be motivated by its own self-interests; for its only true place in creation is in its unity with God, as the means by which He manifests Himself in other-love through our human selves. Apart from our destined place in the unity, we can only be self-loving selves. Therefore it is useless and a waste of time for us to ask God to make us loving toward others, or patient or pure, or free us from human reactions of hate or fear or worry or depression. That is asking an absurdity and an impossibility. The human self can never change. The vessel can never be the living water it contains. The branch cannot be the vine nor successfully imitate it.
When that recognition is a reality to us, then we can start by accepting ourselves in our weakness and all normal human reactions. In this distorted world we are besieged all day long by fear and doubt and hate and worry and all the rest of them. To feel them is normal, not wrong. We shall always be responding to them. We hate or dislike this person. We are jealous of that one. We are afraid of what we are called on to do. We are worried by daily problems. We have fits of deep depression. Our minds are assaulted by all kinds of wrong thinking. If we struggle against them, what help is that? If we condemn ourselves for such reactions, we remain still bound and full of guilt. If we call on God to help or change us, we don't get changed, or maybe just a momentary relief.
Then on what grounds can we accept ourselves? Because of this great revelation: we are merely the negative joined to the Positive. We are no longer we, but Christ in us. Christ the real we! Listen to Paul. He starts by saying Christ died for us, then speaks of the Lord with us, and goes on to his special revelation of Christ in us; but he ends up, when he gives his personal witness, that Christ is the real 'I'. 'I live,' he says in Galatians 2:20. 'No,' he corrects himself. 'It is not I, but Christ living in me.' Christ not with, not just in, but replacing Paul, Christ in Paul's form. And Christ in your form and mine." Who Am I? Norman Grubb
· · · 16 hours ago
    • John P. Cwynar
      Theosophy can try to ground itself in Biblical statements, but it always misses the mark with its endless circular reasonings. Grubb imagines a colorless philosophical unity that lacks the wonderful diversity of Grace.

      Grace, is so simple: "You (a real you) are dead and your (real) life is hid with Christ in God. Seek those things that are above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear... then shall we (the real me) appear with Him in (His) glory." There is always the interplay between Christ & the believer... the Vine and the branch. We are not Him... we are with Him.

      In Galatians 2:20, Paul does not 'correct himself' as Grubb says... rather, he asserts both the believer & Christ. Paul does not disappear... nor do we. Grace is always an encounter between two persons. Being in Christ is a unity in diversity. I do not become Christ, nor does He ever become me.

      In the same way there is the unity of believers. I do not become Nick nor does Nick become John (Nick sighs in relief). We remain very much diverse selves, which is why we can even disagree with each other in love and still remain brothers.

      No one can or will ever replace you or me, because God Himself has created the diverse selves we call the Body of Christ. We all need the diversity of each other. The parts never become the Head nor the Head take the place of a part. But as the Head flows through each diverse part... true unity takes place.
      14 hours ago · · 1 person
    • Kelly Martin-Shirk
      ‎"The human self by itself can only be motivated by its own self-interests; for its only true place in creation is in its unity with God... The vessel can never be the living water it contains. The branch cannot be the vine nor successfully imitate it.... then we can start by accepting ourselves. "

      in places within the above quote, Grubb says what you have said, John. i haven't read much of him, so can't speak to where he goes... but... i'm pretty much convinced that He loved us so much that He came - to re-connect us to Himself - not to absorb us.

      my continual caveat... there is way more to this God and us than we can grasp right now :)
      14 hours ago · · 3 people
    • Pat Hux Been researching Grubb this morning. He founded InterVarsity. But was strongly influenced by theosophists. He was also a missionary. Good and not so good teachings. A bit of a mystic. Invented a doctrine he called Union Life - there is only one Person in the universe and everything is God.. which is basically oneness doctrine.

      I've seen him quoted before, and none of it resonated with me or set right in my spirit.
      13 hours ago · · 2 people
    • Kelly Martin-Shirk ‎[see caveat :) ] probably could add 'and none of us has perfect doctrine' - some of us are a little more 'out there' than others - for me, i pay attention to the little red flag and the bell/ siren which goes off inside me :)
      12 hours ago · · 4 people
    • Kelly Martin-Shirk and... good for you Pat in doing some research
      12 hours ago · · 2 people
    • John P. Cwynar
      Theosophists use a lot of circular reasoning which sometimes makes Grubb hard to pin down. One minute you think you agree with him and then he contradicts himself.

      Like Pat's statement of what they believe... "there is only one Person in the universe and everything is God" is a contradiction in itself. Theosophy denies the existence of a personal God, yet they use the term 'Person.' For them God is a philosophical, mystical life force.

      Kelly... I agree that none of us has 'perfect doctrine', but as you also said... some are really out there...:)))
      3 hours ago · · 2 people
    • Pat Hux The same is true of some 'old school' grace teachers. It's even hard to pin down how you know they are in that category. But they still have a bit of legalistic thinking. They say really good things, and then contradict themselves without blinking. I guess it's like good art. You know it when you see it.

      Not to change the subject.

      Or, why not? LOL. Par for the course around here.... ;)
      3 hours ago · · 2 people
    • John P. Cwynar Ok, Pat... you change the subject... I'll change the predicate and Kelly can change the object...
      3 hours ago ·
    • Pat Hux should the Pope wear a beanie....? (I know, I stole that one) Should I do penance.....?
      3 hours ago · · 1 person
    • John P. Cwynar Three wacks with a wet beanie...
      3 hours ago ·
    • Nick Cabbiness
      Just getting to respond, guys (and ladies) after a long day. You know when one puts up a quote, it's easy to forget that not everyone sees the larger context from which it comes, and which would probably answer many of your comments and questions. I can sometimes forget that very important fact--sorry:) Norman Grubb is actually the instrument God used to teach me grace. I knew him for 15 years and many of my best friends and closest brothers and sisters have come from that fellowship. So, sharing this quote on Oasis of Grace is just a way of me sharing a little of my personal story.
      about an hour ago · · 5 people
    • Nick Cabbiness So, my intention would not be to defend Norman, but I would be more than happy to discuss the quote (the reason I chose it was that it was such a life changing one for me).
      about an hour ago · · 5 people
    • Pat Hux Jesus changed you - the most important thing of all....♥
      about an hour ago · · 3 people
    • Tom NeSmith ‎:
      I one pictures "Christ in me" as Jesus being light that shines through the window of who I am... you still are your and the light takes on a special you color and hue.
      about an hour ago · · 5 people
    • Pat Hux I think that's blue, for peace...
      about an hour ago · · 2 people
    • Nick Cabbiness that's a great image, Tom.
      about an hour ago · · 3 people
    • Pat Hux he has sticky fingers again..... a common malady on FB....
      about an hour ago · · 2 people
    • Tom NeSmith
      ‎:
      I think that's what Grubb was saying. It leaves us being us and God being God. A work of the HS is to make sure the "window" is translucent so God's light shines through.
      Not resting in Grace smudges up the window. It doesn't change thefact that God is shining on the window. The worries of this world smudge up the window. We're still receiving the light (and are maybe not so aware of it) but the world isn't seeing that light because of our unbelief... or un-rest.
      The process of maturing is a matter of reducing the cycles of smudging/cleaning. Perhaps "stained-glass-window" would be a better metaphor. It leaves us with distinct character and the world sees God's light with the special characteristics He gave us.
      So... John and Grubb can have their cake and eat it too! ;-)
      about an hour ago · · 3 people
    • John P. Cwynar Nick ... next time, why don't you just quote NeSmith instead of Grubb... Tom's windows are easier to see through...:)))
      about an hour ago · · 2 people
    • Nick Cabbiness Well, I like them both, John:) But I like yours too, brother:)
      about an hour ago · · 3 people
    • John P. Cwynar Likewise, brother!
      about an hour ago · · 3 people
    • Tom NeSmith
      ‎:
      Like a rope being made up of cords made up of strands made up of fibers made up of fibrils... so a personality is very fibrous. Maturing in Christ is a matter of allowing the HS to reweave the fibers into a new revelation of who we really are in Christ.

      As one can take many ropes and wrap them around each other to make a huge, strong, rope... so it is with the body of Christ being one made up of many. So the "one" personality can also work. It's a personality with rich characteristics. ;-)
      about an hour ago · · 3 people
    • John P. Cwynar
      Tom... I with you on the windows, ropes & revelations... great NeSmith analogies. But the "one" personality thing is a crock... Cwynar analogy. It denys what you just said about the windows and ropes.

      Who we are in Christ is not a single / mono personality. Each of us has a very distinct & wonderfully diverse personality. The same Christ lives in us, but even the way he shines through our window is soooo different. Compare Tom with Pang ... beautifully light years apart, and yet the same Christ / same Holy Spirit indwells both. Viva the diversity... viva the unity!
      51 minutes ago · · 3 people
    • Pat Hux Jesus' person working in all of us..... a beam of light breaking into the colors of the rainbow.....
      49 minutes ago · · 2 people
    • Tom NeSmith ‎:
      ... and a "rainbow" of different personalities.
      48 minutes ago · · 2 people
    • Pat Hux colors = personalities in my world..... or at least my analogy....
      46 minutes ago · · 2 people
    • John P. Cwynar Tom... I think I like Hux analogies better than yours or mine!:)))
      46 minutes ago · · 1 person
    • Pat Hux I'm a frustrated hippie...... I think in rainbows
      46 minutes ago · · 2 people
    • Andrea Garzón Thanks for sharing Nick! Love this book! Norman was one heck of dude! ;)
      44 minutes ago · · 2 people
    • John P. Cwynar Rainbows are actually 'sunbows' in the rain.
      44 minutes ago · · 2 people
    • Pang William
      Nick... I like it very much and indeed profound... Self indeed the biggest hindrance to man. How can one not conscious of self if the self still lives? How can one be if the mind is still concern of things related to self? How can one be... asking how to be selfless? Some said... be Christ conscious and not self conscious... but how be it if the how is of self?...

      Well we know who we are... yet we don't live who we are. Why? I don't know... because my self is still here... But i am sure one day it will come to pass... in His time! Shalom.
      44 minutes ago · · 2 people
    • Tom NeSmith Good on John!
      43 minutes ago · · 2 people
    • Pat Hux hey, here in Seattle we have liquid sunshine, which I sometimes call hidden rainbows.... otherwise known as falling mist... not really rain, not really fog..... not really officially on the radar, lol
      41 minutes ago · · 1 person
    • John P. Cwynar ‎"my self is still here"... Pang... who will push the keys on your keyboard and move the mouse if your self leaves??? My self is tired and I am going to put it to bed. I will even share my Sponge Bob pillow with him tonight...
      36 minutes ago · · 2 people
    • Pang William Your self no more but you body remain... just like your flesh is dead but your body remain... :))
      13 minutes ago ·

No comments: