Sunday, November 7, 2010

Freewill, do you really have?

Pang William
Talking about free will... Adam was given the free will to choose between the two trees. But once Adam chose the tree that lead to sin and death, that's it... he had no more free will again to choose the tree of Life and thus was cast out of the garden.
November 2 at 7:35am · · ·
  • Sandy Crosby, Khoo Maggie, Garry 'Garth' Darcy and 14 others like this.
    • Pang William Likewise we born after Adam inherited his sin also given one free will to choose... but only this one free will is for us to choose the tree of Life. Once we chose it, we died to Adam's sin and born again in Christ. There after no more free will for us to choose anymore. We are sealed with Holy Spirit and cannot return to Adam!
      November 2 at 7:35am · · 2 people
    • La-tosiha Simms Amen
      November 2 at 7:35am · · 1 person
    • Pang William
      Apostle Paul was persuaded. Are you?... Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      God wants us to be persuaded, assured, unwaivering, unshakable, completely, confidently knowing His Love for us! We don't need to persuade God but we need to persuade ourselves of the these things above! Amen!
      November 2 at 7:38am · · 5 people
    • David Carper I am persuaded!
      November 2 at 7:41am · · 1 person
    • Chris O
      Really?
      This is a new spin on the truth of free will: "no more free will for us to choose anymore"???
      Are you now a puppet or robot, just being controlled without any freedom to exercise your will?
      Please where is this taught in the Bible dear Pang?
      Is that what the Bible teaches and says?

      If what you have said is true, then Jesus Christ would not have said in John 15 that "every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away".
      And Hebrews 3:12 and 4:1 would not have been addressed to "brethren" or to "us".

      And if what you are teaching here in your words dear Pang is true, then why does God say what He says in Hebrews 10:38?
      And if you are so sealed and secure as you say, then why does 2Peter 1:10 say what it says?

      Just to add, Adam had free will to choose either the tree of life or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, both in the midst of the garden.
      He did not have "no more free will to choose the tree of life"; the Scriptures say in Genesis 3:22-23 "...and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and live for ever: therefore the Lord God sent himforth from the garden..."
      Please tell me, if Adam had no more free will again, why would the Lord God say "lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life"??
      Every one born of the Spirit is not stripped of free will dear Pang. It is as though you are tacitly saying that the man who is born again is some sort of mindless puppet with no free will, and you indirectly make God to be some sort of giant cosmic puppeteer who takes the freedom of choices away from His children. What you have said above is preposterous and heretical and even quite amusingly ridiculous in the extremity of its bizarreness......how exactly did you arrive at this unreasonable conclusion of "no more free will"??
      November 2 at 8:48am · · 3 people
    • Lars Siah שׁת Luat
      This is because, after Adam ate the fruit from tree of knowledge of good and evil, they sinned. If they eat the fruit from tree of life after that, sin can't be sentence to death and sin become forever can't be judge. They live forever and sin forever (which is weird and can't be compromise).
      Therefore, God must cast out Adam and Eve before sin become eternal. When God say " the wages of sin is death", thank God it's a living life substitute is used as a penalty because sin was considered as death. If Adam ate another fruit from tree of life, sin is undestroyable because it made sin as "life".
      Let say if sin is eternal forever because of Adam ate the fruit from tree of life after eating the fruit from tree of knowledge of good and evil, how God can redeemed the human mankind? Like I said just now, sin is considered as dead thing and the only thing to defeat sin is to make "Someone" who has been put to death to be raise from the dead. If sin is considered as life, and that Person is raised from the dead, then it can never be justified. The only thing to settle that is to put everyone dead and the heaven has no human who are saved.

      After the judgement felled on Jesus ( The punishment must be made before human being can be redeemed), God command the believers to partake the fruit from the tree of life, no more depending on the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, after we are justified from all things, we can eat the fruit from the tree of life. Let say, if we still have the free will and God already made a way of life and it is God command for the believer to take that way, still, many people choose their own way instead of God's way. God want everyone to take the way of life, but still there are some people who are not. No wonder Jesus said "broad is the way that lead to destruction, not many found the narrow way that lead to life" (this one is not talking about eternal destruction of eternal life). God's way is the only way for us to have a of life in this world. Broad is the way is the way of the worldly people have a lot of ways but in the end, it lead to our own destruction.

      p/s: please don't be offended towards all my opinion. I'm still learning and discovering the the Truth.
      November 2 at 9:32am · · 2 people
    • Wanda DeLong ummm.... Lars Siah Luat that is basically the same thing that Chris said only in a different way. Thanks Chris for clearing the free will thing up. I was talkin to the Lord about how to explain it. You beat me to it brother. Be blessed.
      November 2 at 9:57am · · 1 person
    • Fred Dunakin Thanks Chris and amen!
      November 2 at 10:06am ·
    • Kermit Kiser
      Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
      ...
      Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
      ---
      Calvinists and Arminians think there is a conflict between man's free will and God's sovereignty. They are both deluded.
      November 2 at 12:47pm ·
    • Pang William
      Do not be confused of the One Freewill that God has for man to choose Life which is the Son of God and the freewill we exercise everyday. If you think your freewill is that powerful... why can't your freewill reject sin while you were a sinner? If your freewill can reject sin, you don't need Christ and He died in vain. You can't because the wages of sin is death. Only through death you are free from sin.

      Now you have received Life in Christ through His death and rose with Him in the Spirit of Life... you will live forever in Life! And now you are joint heirs, I repeat... joint heirs with Christ and you think you can just reject Life and return to sin? He has your salvation in His hand, He has the final word, you don't. You may be stupid enough to let go... but not Him! Ask yourself, if your son comes to you and say... Dad I'm sick of this life and I want to die. Will you say... OK, I know you have your freewill and I respect your decision. What kind of sick father are you? And you think our Father in heaven is like that too?

      Mat 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

      Come on... have a bit more faith! I'm not gonna debate on the many verses that you put forth. But I would like to remind you that it was the scribes and the pharisees who knew the Scriptures from back to back crucified Jesus. I tell you my dear brother... If you see faith, you see Life but if you see doubt, you see death! The only you can reject Life is never to use that One and Only Freewill to accept Jesus Christ! Why is it only One? Because Jesus only died Once!
      November 2 at 3:00pm ·
    • Chris O
      Listen dear Pang, I don't see doubt nor am I uncertain about salvation AT ALL.
      But faith is not unreasonable dear sir.
      The issue you have raised is in conflict with what God's word says to His children, and you know this. Please do not try to make salvation in Christ to mean what it is not, and in saying those things you have said above, you confuse people and you set yourself up to affront the sovereignty of God's own truth. This is not about doubt or having a free will to eat only of the tree of life etc. The fact of the matter is that Jesus Christ so PLAINLY teaches that one can come to Him and even follow Him and can reject Him (please read John 6 for a full lesson on this concerning free will) and the entire old and new testament tells us the same thing.
      I just desire that people say it like the word of God says it, without any additions or subtractions or selective preference given to one part of God's word over and against another; the integrity of God's truth is that it is integral for the one who is justified by faith to treat the word as true as the One Who declared it.
      And when you make such claims of truth that are not true like this, then you find yourself in the position of calling me a scribe and pharisee, and YET you cannot refute what God's word so plainly says and Christ Himself teaches in those very few Scriptures which I postedd above. If I were to post all that the bible has to say and teach us on this matter of God's sovereignty and man's free will, you yourself know that you are in error and will be perfectly unable to refute the simple and plain declarations of the Scriptures......but you CAN reject what the word of God tells us.

      How's that for you still be able to exercise your free will contrary to the good will of God?

      Stop confusing people dear sir.
      November 2 at 4:06pm ·
    • Kermit Kiser
      I am not sure who you are addressing but you seem a little confused. God does not want robots or He would have created everyone that way in the beginning. Even after coming to Christ, we must choose each day to take up our cross and follow Him as He said. And Paul's warnings are not without reason:
      ---
      Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors; not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
      Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
      ...
      Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
      Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
      ---
      We should not confuse the freedom of choice with the consequences of our choices, which God controls just as He controls what choices exist:
      ---
      Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
      Gal 6:8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
      Gal 6:9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
      November 2 at 4:07pm · · 1 person
    • Chris O Amen dear Kermit.
      November 2 at 4:21pm ·
    • Chris O
      The first thing we need to have established in our hearts is that God is sovereign; that is, He is absolutely free to do whatsoever He wills to do, and He is in absolute control presiding over all His creation and shall bring all His eternal purposes to their conclusion in accordance to His sovereign good will.
      Now here comes the dilemma in our hearts when we ask:
      But if God is Sovereign, what about man's free will?

      Well....what about it?
      God's sovereignty simply means that He is in absolute control over everything that He has planned from all eternity. Man's free will means that he (man) can, anytime he wants, make almost any choice he pleases (within his finite and human limitations of course). Man's free will can apparently defy the purposes of God and man can will AGAINST the will of God (which is what we see happen in the garden of Eden and with all the examples of rebellion in the Scriptures).
      So how do we resolve this seeming contradiction? for the sake of those who would not purport to know the mind of God but desire that HE reveal His own truth to them.
      I am not a calvinist or an arminian or anything of the sort...I am simply a believer in Christ and His word and His doctrine and I follow His example; and insofar as you are His and love His truth, you and I will have the same likemindedness in Christ; BUT if any one of us does not love His truth, then we shall be divided and one of us shall be found a liar before God.

      God's sovereignty means HIS absolute freedom to do whatsoever He wills to do. And one of the things which He wills to do is to give man the freedom to do what he (man) pleases. So when man does what he pleases, he is fulfilling the will of God, not controverting it. for God in His sovereignty has given man the freedom to make a free choice. (which is what dear Kermit shared with us above in Deuteronomy 30:19 and we can also find in Joshua 24:15). Even if the choice man makes is not the one God would have made for me, His sovereignty is fulfilled in my making the choice. And man can make the choice because the Great Sovereign God, Who is completely and perfectly free, said to me "choose you this day whom you will serve".
      The Lord puts the decision in the lap of man. And even if man should choose to do that which is contrary to God's will, he (man) does not cancel out or controvert the sovereignty of God. And this is where many people stumble over just like you dear Pang William have done. God does not strip anyone of having the freedom of will to choose, neither does He tyrannically impose only "one free will" upon any man as you made it out to seem.

      So we see that God is absolutely free to do as He pleases, and in His sovereignty, He has made man free to do as he (man) pleases -- within a certain framework, but not a very large one. after all, we are free to make moral choices.And although NOTHING can countermand the divine decree spoken by God in saving His people: we MUST understand that if a born again soul walks contrary to the will of God, God DOES NOT will that such a person should do it, but He wills that every person be free to do it. And when a person freely chooses to walk against the way of God, that person freely chooses to go on the road to perdition. And all of this applies to the matter of sanctification and consecration and the deeper life of obedience to the Lord; which is why the Lord spoke to Israel with the condition that "IF" the would hearken to His voice and obey Him then He would deliver them and bless them. It still applies to us in Jesus Christ. We also are told "IF" we keep His commandments and abide in His word/doctrine, then it is evidence of His love within us. Consecration by obedience to the will of God is an absolute necessity; but I do not preach legalism or works salvation here please. I simply say this so that people will not think like dear Pang here that obedience is forced on us by God stripping us of our free will to choose, or that it is optional to choose to obey God or not.

      We either freely make the choice to obey God, or we perish.
      Heaven is not being filled with slaves who had their free will taken from them, but rather, willing servants committed to the will of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by exercising their free will to follow Him (I hope you read John 6, so that you can see for yourself the exercising of free will in two VERY different ways in John 6:66-68).
      And hell is being populated by souls who willingly made the choice to go there by exercising their freedom of will to do what they pleased in satisfying their own will against the sovereign will of God in salvation in Christ Jesus.

      The Bible is VERY clear on these things dear Pang William.
      VERY CLEAR.
      November 2 at 5:23pm · · 1 person
    • Susan Phillips Prince Amen Chris !!
      November 2 at 7:39pm ·
    • Pang William
      Gal 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. For that matter... I have taken out little leaven here. If you still insist to think that you can lose your salvation by renounce Jesus, is your choice. But I would suggest you to look at your heavenly Father as One loving you...

      Luk 15:20 And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.' 22 "But the father said to his servants, 'Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry.

      If only you know how much your Father loves you and gave His only begotten Son for you so that you can come home... You won't appreciate my posts here. If only you know His Love, you don't know Him!

      1Co 3:18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
      November 2 at 9:04pm · · 2 people
    • Carol L Robinson
      Christ taught Jews who were under the Law and many of His teachings and parables were to raise or magnify the Law to it's highest level to reveal to them that they could not keep the rigid commands that God gave for righteousness.
      All any of us can do is throw ourselves on the mercy, grace and forgiveness of God.
      The "gospels" taught by Christ are BEFORE the cross, before sins was dealt with ONCE FOR ALL.
      Even in Hebrews 10:26, this whole passage is not talking about sinful acts, but the sin of unbelief that we have been made righteous by faith. That unbelief is what God is wrathful about, that thinking that works must be done to inherit eternal life when ALL that is required of our Father is faith in Jesus's sacrifice....that is what pleases Him.
      When a person knows the truth about faith alone, and returns to sacrifical acts to be pleasing, then that is trampling on the blood of Christ and making it to no effect.
      November 3 at 8:12am · · 2 people
    • Carol L Robinson
      I think, perhaps, there are many people who stop at the cross, think Christ bore their sin and they will go to heaven when they die, but don't understand that isn't all to salvation. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the heart of the believer and produces "Life" in them.

      We are prepared for His works through the power of the Holy Spirit...the Life coming from the Vine to us. It isn't us just being grateful for Christ's sacrifice, but also that we now have the Comforter to help us.
      November 3 at 1:59pm · · 1 person
    • Pang William
      For the benefit of everyone, here is my opinion on the statement posted by Mr. Christ O (above) which is... If what you have said is true, then Jesus Christ would not have said in John 15 that "every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away".

      Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

      My interpretation from the eyes of Grace...

      I am the vine means I am the Life of the world. You are the branches means you are a part of this world. He who abides in Me means he who believe and receive Me and I in him means My Spirit shall be sealed in him, bears much fruit means he shall produce much the fruits of the Spirit.

      If anyone does not abide in Me means if anyone does not receive Me. he is cast out as a branch and is withered means he is thrown out of this world and died and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned indicates they is neither God nor Christ but the devils binded them and thrown into everlasting fire of hell.

      Conclusion: A branch... does not mean a believer. And not abiding... does not mean losing your salvation.
      November 3 at 9:58pm · · 1 person
    • Carol L Robinson
      I'm leaping again Pang........what you said is total truth. In the old covenant, the blood of bulls and goats was not permanent, and was only a covering.
      The sacrifice of Christ was done one time to wash away permanently all sin......so that seal of the Holy Spirit doesn't go away, salvation stays because our sins have already been dealt with.
      November 3 at 11:33pm · · 1 person
    • Susan Phillips Prince Ravi Zacharias discusses free will... give it a listen.. http://vimeo.com/11166751
      November 3 at 11:51pm ·
    • Pang William Amen Carol... Ya one sacrifice for sin forever... we can never go back to sin again! Never again either by your freewill or not. We are forever righteous in Christ! Too bad for those who insist you can renounce Christ! Haha... say goodbye to Mr SA Tan.
      November 3 at 11:57pm ·
    • Carol L Robinson True enough Pang. Either someone actually believes that by faith and Christ's righteous, we have been made righteous, or they are still in their sins and works righteousness.
      Thursday at 12:00am · · 1 person
    • Pang William
      Chris O quoted... Heb 10:38 NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; BUT IF ANYONE DRAWS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM."

      Please be aware of this... whenever you read the book of Hebrews, remember that it was written to the Jews. so Draws Back doesn't mean renounce Christ, but return to the law of Moses without receive Jesus Christ.
      Thursday at 12:19am · · 1 person
    • Pang William
      Dear Susan, the talk was on the general freewill we make everyday like what to do, where to go, to do or not to do... It is different from my post here saying there is only One freewill to determine life or death. That one freewill is for us to choose Jesus to have life.

      If you understand my post... we are all born in sin and death because of Adam's sin but since Jesus came and died on our behalf for that sin. We are given one more chance to choose the tree of Life. If we choose Life, we live eternally but if we didn't, we die eternally. Since we can't change from death to life by ourselves, we also can't change from life back to death. That's my point of the post.

      This is the principle of the Firstfruit. Adam was the firstfruit of mankind in sin, so is the whole world born after him. And the wage of sin is death, therefore for God to save us, He sent His only Son born as man and died for us. Because Jesus Himself has no sin thus He fulfilled the law on our behalf and God was so please that He raise Jesus from the death. Now because He lives, therefore He became the firstfruit in righteousness and we who used that one and last Freewill to choose Him also became righteous in Him! Shalom.
      Thursday at 3:48am ·
    • Susan Phillips Prince
      Believe me when I say that I am not trying to take issue with you Pang, I love reading your post and all are very encouraging to me. Doctrine has always been the subject of many Christian disagreements .There is really only one (Grace) that we all agree on and this is what our Salvation is all about... knowing Jesus Christ , crucified, and His resurrection and by the spilling of His blood , we who accept as Him as our Saviour are forgiven and have eternal life.
      A fact that all agree on, is that we cannot by ourselves or through our own means obtain the favor of God. Man cannot forgive himself of his sins. No work done by man alone can ever remove one sin, or gain eternal salvation. This was the point that Paul was making in that most famous verse...Eph. 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
      I do have a question..you wrote... "We are given* one more chance *to choose the tree of Life. " You also wrote.." He became the firstfruit in righteousness and we who used that *one and last Freewill to choose Him also became righteous in Him! * I don't understand your meaning here ? What do you mean "one more chance"?
      Thursday at 6:32am ·
    • Pang William
      Back to the benefits of the readers... the post of Kermitt on Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

      In Roman Apostle Paul was talking about law and grace all the way... so here in its context was referring to those go back to the law for justification will be cut off from Grace. It doesn't mean lost of salvation but without His grace and mercy in protection. The same applies to Galatians... falling from Grace doesn't mean going to hell!
      Thursday at 12:20pm ·
    • Pang William
      What about Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. ... like Kermit mentioned above. So you may ask... if you said we can't lose our salvation then why it says you will die?

      How many would agree that the Bible is a very complicated book yet very simple if led by the Spirit? Let me tell you... I wasn't any different from any of you disagreed with me here. I too could not accept the theory of "Once Saved, Always Saved". At some point I even ask... does it really matter? As long as I know I'm saved is good enough. But the Spirit said otherwise... Rom 15:13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit... If you are not solid and strong in you believed, you're wavering and easily being deceived...

      You are what you ate, you are what you received, and most of all, you are what you believed! I think we all agreed on that! But how do you know what you eat is good? What you received benefit you? What you believed is the Truth?

      Now here is how we know... God said: Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.". We no longer live by right or wrong, good or bad... the law but by joy and peace in our hearts and in our minds of the Holy Spirit.

      Therefore when you read a verse like Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live... What was the immediate response in your heart and what was the first thought came into your mind? For me... the first response was fear thinking that I better be careful not to live by the flesh or I will lose my salvation and die. Soon the next thought came... it is impossible not to live by flesh cos we are in the flesh everyday (It was still fear). Next thought came with a verse... I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me... Now like a bulb turned on (fear began to disappear), I began to think... Since it is not I who live but Christ lives in me for I am in Christ and Christ is a Spirit that also make me a spirit too (faith is appearing). Next thought... if I am in Christ and Christ lives my life... what is there to worry? I am completely confident to say I will never live according to the flesh and die because it is Christ who lives in me by the Spirit and not I who live! Christ cannot fail, therefore I cannot fail!!! (joy and peace arrived)

      Joy, peace and love are the indicators to your answers and faith is always there. I said this before but I'll say it again... If you see faith, you see Life but if you see doubt, you see death! This is exactly the same meaning as Rom 8:13. Shalom.
      Thursday at 6:28pm ·
    • Pang William
      Thanks Susan for your questions. The answer to both your questions... is indeed the same. It is referring to Jesus' finished work on the cross gave us that one more chance. If not for Him, we will never have that chance! It is also our last chance because Jesus isn't going to it again. I also called it the one and last Freewill because it is the most important Decision that we all have to make in our life time that matters. I hope it is clear now.

      Allow me to add one more point which I didn't post but was in my heart... That one and last freewill for us is also the will of God for us.

      Joh 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
      Thursday at 11:52pm ·
    • Pang William
      Do you know that it is the same thing we read... even have it quoted here again... Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

      Why is there so much difference in our interpretation? I see Life but many see death... Why? The answer is... It is not what you see but what you want to see! If you see faith, you see Life but if you doubt, you see death. Another word... if you are righteous conscious, you see Life but if you are sin conscious, you see death!
      Friday at 4:58pm ·
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