Sunday, November 21, 2010

Is tribulation, pain and suffering from God?

Jeff Pate
If sickness, tragedy, miscarriages, divorce, job loss, financial ruin, and any other so-called "tribulation" are supposed to cause us to draw closer to God, and to cause us to love God more, then we should be praying for these things to occur instead of praying to be delivered from them.
November 19 at 7:41am · ·
  • Cathy Rheeder, Theresa Chavis Locklear, Cecil Clemons and 22 others like this.
    • Pamela Donnan schizophrenic Christianity.....
      November 19 at 7:42am · · 4 people
    • Ted Nelson yeah, go figure.
      November 19 at 8:03am · · 1 person
    • Amy Yosefa Foote
      Well, I think we often do draw closer in our pain. But I don't believe God puts these things on us to cause us to draw closer to Him, I know God never wants to see His children suffer, I certainly dont want o see my children suffer .
      Some of my biggest times of spiritual growth have come out in tragedy, when I was so distraught I clung to Him with everything in me. Pain isn't always a horrible thing IMHO.

      I never pray for these things to happen, but while going through tough times, which we all do. I can rest in Papas loving arms.
      November 19 at 8:06am · · 3 people
    • Shauna Winters I'm not sure about that, Jeff.
      November 19 at 8:38am ·
    • Sue Lowery-Stacks Jeff,Jesus will never hear those prayers...He never puts sickness and heartache on us...that is why He took the stripes on His back, so we could have victory in Him...satan puts sickness and heartache on us, if you say those prayers, I'm afraid satan is the one that will answer those prayer.
      November 19 at 9:16am · · 2 people
    • Carlos Parraz Good post!!!! LOVE is NOT self seeking!
      November 19 at 10:08am · · 1 person
    • Jeff Pate
      We draw closer to Father in our pain because in our hearts we know He IS the solution and cure to our pain and NOT just a sympathizer with it.

      It appears some did not understand that my point in the comment was not to promote this way of thinking, but to reveal how utterly stupid this way of thinking is and how it should be torn down and destroyed through the good news that "He sent His word and healed them and delivered them from ALL their destructions." [Psalm 107:20]
      November 19 at 10:21am · · 7 people
    • Alan St Andrew There are those who DO pray for such things! The knots some are twisted into! It's not enough that there are SO MANY that need to be freed from darkness OUTSIDE the church. There's a HUGE JOB INSIDE the church as well!
      November 19 at 12:12pm · · 3 people
    • Pang William
      Why are there sicknesses, lacks and sufferings?... All these are all the results of sin and they are not from God but God can work it for good if we turn to Him. Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

      What good can God make from all these sufferings?...Just because God can make good our sins, doesn't mean sin is from God. So likewise all our sufferings work out for good to His Mercy and Grace! Because of that, we drew near to God... not because of our sufferings.

      When will the day of no suffering be for us? Will it ever come?... Some say no, it will not happen on earth. But I believe it can... The day we fully know who we are in Christ is the day we completely see no suffering in us.

      How to get there? We don't, He does! Let go and let Him... We'll get there through the transformation of our minds... into His Rest!

      Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ... Amen!
      November 19 at 1:23pm · · 1 person
    • Alan St Andrew
      Ah, William! You asked the BIG question. "When will the day of no suffering be for us?" With this I would also ask, "What does 'no suffering' LOOK like?" I like your answer to the BIG question, and to mine I would add, "look at Stephen."

      54 Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. 55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. 58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:54-60 (ESV)

      Beholding the Glory, what man calls suffering, he was not swayed by. How do we get there? We walk in HIS faith. Beholding His Glory, no suffering can hope to compare! Father's way is clear; He takes the victory out of the evil that is sent against us by overshadowing it and bringing good undreamed of from it! To the one that meant to steal, kill and destroy, having every one of his best attacks turned INSIDE OUT is WORSE THAN DEFEAT IN COMBAT. This is PUBLIC RIDICULE! Look again at this passage. Father took that Saul, and brought the fame of His Son to Caesar through him, and made clear the Grace of God for us all!

      15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Colossians 2:15 (NKJV)
      November 19 at 1:40pm · · 1 person
    • Pang William
      Yes Brother Alan... You are on the absolute question... What does no suffering look like?... I would put like this... What is suffering to those who is fearless? What is suffering to those who has died to self? Therefore it says... sin shall not have dominion over us because we are not under law but under Grace.

      Stephen is a true picture of Full Faith... a complete enlighten of revelation in Christ! Fearless in the perfect Love of Christ. Wow... I could only imagine... and wonder would I act the same if I were Stephen?

      Remember the three friends of Daniel... Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. (Dan 3). They have full Faith. They rather go through the burning fiery furnace believing that their God whom they serve is able to deliver than to fall down and worship the image of King Nebuchadnezzar. Ever imagine if you were one of them, would you do the same? That's the kind of full Faith I was talking about. I guess we only find out when it truly happened!

      Dan 3:25 "Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."
      November 19 at 5:18pm · · 2 people
    • Amy Yosefa Foote Thanks for clearing it up Jeff, and I agree.
      November 19 at 8:41pm · · 1 person
    • Agnes Grace Hanson
      i once heard a story about 2 missionaries who were in prison and the next day would be tied to a stake and then be set on fire. On the night before this would happen, one of the missionaries was so frightened and asked "how am i ever going to be burned at the stake when i can't even stand accidentally burning my finger with a match? And the other missionary said "When its time to be burned, and as you focus on Jesus He will show you His Marvelous grace to you (like Stephen did in Acts and Daniel's 3 friends in the furnace) you won't feel a thing.
      November 19 at 11:46pm · · 3 people
    • Pang William Yes Agnes... Faith never fail! If you can believe, it will be so!
      November 20 at 12:03am · · 1 person
    • Bayardo Guevara I believe the only reason for tribulation is to have a good sense of balance between good and evil!-- If we wouldn't experience the pangs of what evil is capable of doing how do we know about what's truly good in life and how to stay on the right path?
      November 20 at 12:52am ·
    • Don McCallum
      Ha Ha! @Agnes; yea, just like the Dentist says, "You won't feel a thing! " Believe me, you will, but, it won't be for more than you can stand, and God will bring you to Him afterward. Jesus had pain, and so do we. Christianity is NOT an escape from suffering, but, it does give meaning to it, and it has the fruit of bringing others to know that your faith is real. Also, God will reward those who've suffered more for His sake; more than those who have not suffered so much. Stephen will be among those who are resurrected in the first resurrection, and he will reign with Jesus for a thousand years, while those who have not been martyred will still be asleep in death.
      November 20 at 1:21am · · 2 people
    • Theunis J van Rensburg
      Just curious... Among those who commented: Do we have any who are suffering, poor, ill, abused?

      Things are more complicated than they look on the surface, especially so for victims of the faith movement. There is a goodness that can be harvested from evil, an evil spirit from God in king Saul, honey from a lion, a victory for a blind Samson who gets pissed off one last time and pulls a radical suicide-deliverance. This is not a dualism.

      When I was a kid, all the sons of Simon Magus I worshiped as member of the faith cult, as one believed that when Paul & Silas sang and praised, the chains fell off "as a result" of their singing... just like voodoo, where man controls deity. I think these men were so madly in love with Jesus that they worshiped Him there in prison, just because. The miracle happened because of God, not man.

      But the penitent grace person does not flagellate himself! I think the hack we need to find here is that Grace brings abnormally mad courage!
      November 20 at 1:44am ·
    • Pang William Yes Bayardo... Tribulation is part of life but Jesus said... Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." ... After every tribulation... you'll appreciate Him more!
      November 20 at 1:58am · · 1 person
    • Jean Spaulding ‎...and through it all we've learned to TRUST in Jesus, we've learned to BELIEVE in God! Through it all we learn to depend and take Him at His Word.
      November 20 at 1:58am · · 2 people
    • Jeff Pate Whosoever is born of God overcomes the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith (Christ). We are MORE THAN conquerors through Him who loved us. Jesus' words were NOT to promise troubles, but to declare that because HE has overcome the world, we would as well, having peace and good cheer. Amen.
      November 20 at 2:05am · · 1 person
    • Elgin Young Jeff, you gotta lemme use this one
      November 20 at 2:30am ·
    • Jean Spaulding We already overcome, conquered and stand victorious through The Blood of Jesus Christ! Oh let this great TRUTH so premiate out spirits today Lord that we may all walk in it and beworthy of Your calling!!! What an Awesome, Mighty, Wonderful God and Friend!
      November 20 at 2:44am · · 1 person
    • Amy Yosefa Foote Pang, I belief we CAN have peace IN tribulations. I know this to be true for myself. I have suffered abuse, was an orphan, an addict, diagnosed with numerous life threatening illnesses, yet I have total peace. Do I believe God wants me well?? Oh yes, I do! But in the meantime as I walk this out, I am clinging to him with everything in me, because I love Him, and He brings me peace that passes understanding.
      November 20 at 2:55am · · 3 people
    • Jim Crowe If all that stuff drew you closer to God then the whole world would already be saved and loving God. Who do you know that treats you like that and you are close to them? ON ONE , you can't really love someone your afraid of.
      November 20 at 3:00am · · 2 people
    • Amy Yosefa Foote Wait I think my repsonse was for Theunis, im getting confused here ;) Oh well its for whoever wants to read it.
      November 20 at 3:01am · · 1 person
    • Amy Yosefa Foote Jim, I believe it's because many people blame God for their suffering. If that's the belief, who in their right mind would want to follow Him?
      But as believers we know that these things do not come from a loving Papa.
      November 20 at 3:04am · · 2 people
    • Jeff Pate Amy, perhaps you mean your peace is IN HIM rather than "in" tribulations? If this were so, like my original point, if peace was active only in trouble (and not exclusively IN JESUS) then we should pray for and not resist any trouble that comes our way. It is by having peace IN HIM we are able to be victorious over and come through the fiery furnace with no burning or even the smell of burning because the Son of God is always with us! Amen. Don't you agree?
      November 20 at 3:05am · · 2 people
    • Jean Spaulding No they do not. This is a fallen world we live in, with a fallen angel ruling the air, govrnment and world syatems, with fallen antiGod men attempting to rule also; hence pain, suffering, death, destruction and war. When one says or aske why God allows such I remind them of the above.
      November 20 at 3:06am · · 1 person
    • Amy Yosefa Foote Jeff yes, of course my peace is in Him. The tribulation sucks :p
      November 20 at 3:08am · · 1 person
    • Jean Spaulding Yet Jeff I believe that we are to glory IN trials and tribulations because, yes, our PEACE os of Him, in Him and because of Him. Isaiah says that HE IS OUR PEACE yet He does bring the peace IN all things, we are to walk in this peace KNOWING He is Lord over ALL and THANK HIM in and for all things.
      November 20 at 3:09am ·
    • Jeff Pate No, we glory in what the tribulations reveal... patience, experience, hope, and hope makes us not ashamed BECAUSE the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. --Romans 5:3-5
      November 20 at 3:12am · · 1 person
    • Jean Spaulding The Word says we glory IN knowing that all such tribulations will bring the above thus building Godly Character. James also instructs to count it all joy to fall into divers temptains; in. A small word yet it must not be moved or changed.
      November 20 at 3:16am ·
    • Jean Spaulding ‎@ Pan & Ted' for what reason would you imply such? Please explain...
      November 20 at 3:17am ·
    • Pang William
      Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

      If God gave us His only Son, how shall He also gave us tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword to separate us from the love of Christ?

      Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
      November 20 at 3:27am ·
    • Jean Spaulding AMEN! I, too, have endured much pain, suffering, trial and tribulation and have most assuredly found all of the above TRUE! I love Him more than they first moment I met Him 26 years ago, He IS my everything and my all in all! Romans 8 is a most awesome Book along with the other 65! : )
      November 20 at 3:41am · · 2 people
    • Pang William Dear Jean, I believe we all been through... or we won't come to where we are today. In Christ we reign! Hallelujah!
      November 20 at 3:49am ·
    • Jean Spaulding Amen Pand! Tried by fire in the furnace of affliction....so be it if it is His Will.
      November 20 at 8:12am ·
    • Bayardo Guevara I'm waiting on You Lord. Though, long- waiting is painfully bitter and though my heart is breaking I have got to remain focused on the unseen which's our promise since the seen is only temporary...I must fix my eyes on Jesus!
      November 20 at 9:33am · · 1 person
    • Bayardo Guevara God is Love! So, let's spread the love!
      -Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! ---May God bless us each and everyone! In Jesus name I ask! :)
      November 20 at 9:46am ·
    • Pang William
      Why are so many Christians still struggling with tribulation? The question is... what have they missed?

      Jesus said... Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." ... Since Christ has overcome the world, the tribulation, why many are still struggle in this world?

      How do you think the enemies attack us? Do you think the devil has the power to create tribulation? To cause pains and sufferings on us? No, he doesn't. If he does... we would all be dead long before we can come to Christ. The Bible says the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). It didn't say is by the devil.

      But in Gen 3:1 it says... the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field and his only weapon against man is through deception by leading man to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is the law. Who else is also referred as the serpent in the Bible? In Mat 23:29 Jesus said "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!... calling them... Mat 23:33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

      Whosoever come to you and preach the law, to lead you back to labor and works, to tell you what is right and wrong, to bring you back to your flesh, to bring you back to the tree of knowledge of good and evil is of the serpent, he is the brood of vipers, he is a minister of the devil.

      Where then are tribulation, pains and sufferings come from? There are the results of sin, which is the by products of the law. Therefore if you are still struggling with tribulation, pains and sufferings... you are still under the law.

      Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. ... Choose Grace and be an overcomer to tribulation, pains and sufferings... for they shall not have dominion over you! Shalom and Amen!
      November 20 at 4:45pm ·
    • Ulf Tornert What an oxymoron - and a good word! This is exactly how F.F. Bosworth used to reason. I love it!
      November 20 at 11:42pm ·
    • Bayardo Guevara Not either prescribed or un-prescribed drugs, nor amphetamines, painkillers, sedatives, coca leaves, cannabis or a combination of all of the above to numb your own pain and keep you in a self-destructive denial but rather, only Jesus is the Way, The Truth and The Life! ---So, be of good cheer while in pain for Jesus is your healer and your head doctor too! -I can smile now knowing that Jesus is here! :)
      November 21 at 12:56am ·
    • Jean Spaulding Amen! The world does seek things things to find peace, love & joy. Jesus is our Peace, Love and Joy! satan is the great imitator/counterfieter he will attempt to suffice all human emotional needs yet knows the end is yet misery. bondage and destruction. Turn your eyes upon Jesus!
      November 21 at 2:04am · · 1 person
    • Joseph Funaro It all comes from the God is in complete control of everything that happens. I heard John Piper say God kills who He wants when He wants and He kills people everyday. It is no wonder the Body of Christ is confused when such well known and followed preachers utter such nonesense about a loving merciful heavenly Father God.
      November 21 at 2:09am ·
    • Jean Spaulding It is NOT NONSENSE that God IS LOVING and MERCIFUL and JUST and FAIR. Yes it is appointed unto all men to DIE once and then comes the judgement. This does not mean God KILLED them yet it was known and allowed.He is also SO LOVING that NONE die without first having known The Way & Plean of Salvation. He is Just & Faor that He will force NONE to recieve this FREE GIFT if they CHOOSE to remain unrepentant, living in sin, following the devil. He is Giod, He is Sovereign and we are not.
      November 21 at 2:15am ·
    • Bayardo Guevara Joseph Funaro, I disagree with your blurred outlook or perceptions about an all loving and merciful God as most people could relate to!
      ---Could it be possible that when all you see is your own pain, perhaps is when you lose sight of God?
      November 21 at 2:19am ·
    • Jean Spaulding The Word says that all day long, which could be 1000s of years, God has stretched out His Arm/Hand to a naysaying and gainsaying people. The Cross of Calvary PROVED His GREAT LOVE for all of mankind, His most priceless of His Creation. He does judge yet is not a vengeful and dictating tyrant! Joseph He LOVES you!
      November 21 at 2:26am ·
    • Pang William Jeff, I have this entire post reposted at my blog...http://yasolovesme.blogspot.com/2010/11/is-tribulation-pain-and-suffering-from.html. I hope you don't mind :))
      Monday at 2:10am ·
    • Jean Spaulding ‎@ Jeff, there is no need to PRAY for such to come since God Himself said all these things would and will come. We live in a fallen world, these occurences come booth naturally as a result of that fact and Supernaturally as the result of the fact that we have an enemy who seeks to sift us as wheat and a LOVING Heavenly Father Who will allow such for our growth and perfection in Him KNOWING that Jesus has already overcome all and we can and will too! Have a Blessed & most wonderful day in The Lord! GBY
      Monday at 2:44am ·
    • Jeff Pate
      Jean, if you believe that troubles are "allowed" by God to promote growth and perfection in Him, shouldn't then the ones whom have had the most trouble be the most mature and perfected in Him? Surely, then with all the tragedies and trouble to befall the nations of Haiti, Somalia, Ethiopia and the like, they must be the most mature of the world and the closest ones to God!

      Finally, if you believe this, then I suggest that you NOT resist them when they come your way because after all God is "allowing" them to promote spiritual growth that you may be perfected in Him.

      Please show me in the Scriptures where Jesus said that sickness, tragedy, miscarriages, divorce, job loss, financial ruin, and any other so-called "tribulation" were "allowed" by the Father for growth and for us to be perfected in Him.

      Even when Paul the apostle was being tormented by the messenger of satan, the Lord said to him, "My grace is sufficient for you. For in weakness my strength is perfected." In other words, Jesus is telling him that His grace is sufficient to be more than a conqueror in all things, and that by surrendering our own strength (weakness) and submitting to His strength, these problems would be NOTHING in comparison to glory that shall be revealed in us.
      Monday at 3:02am · · 1 person
    • Jeff Pate You have a blessed and most wonderful day in the Lord as well! :D
      Monday at 3:02am ·
    • Jean Spaulding
      Indeed these can be used as perfecting and growing and ius stated and set forth in Gods Word. What of Daniel in the lions den, Shadrach, meshach and Abendigo?The Llife of Joseph? Sold into slavery lied about to be dead to his own Father? What of Jesus Own perse cutions?

      Disasters also can, do and will bring entire communities to God. He is most deffinately in control. Peters siftiong and Jobs trials were most deffinatelt requested by satn and ALLOWED by God.

      I have had many hardships and trials Jeff. My entire worldly family literallyt serves dsatn, hates me and hopes, wishes and plots for my death. Many have turned their backs on me because of my faith and belief in Christ. Many unbelievers in my community rise up against me continually, satan has attempted to take my very life on more than one occassion the most recent occuring 10/8-10/20 where I was hospitalized with two dealy blood infections that no Dr. could find the reson for and no Docter could tell me where they went after PRAYING and being HEALED and delivered by The Lord Himself!

      I KNOW ALL has happened for a reason and even ALL bad will be turned to GOOD for those who are the called according to the purpose of The Lord. O BLESS HIS HOLY NAME and YES for and in ALL things, o bless His Holy Name!
      Monday at 5:50am ·
    • Annatjie Nel Roos God will never use our enemy to draw us closer to Him...Amen!!!!
      Tuesday at 4:45pm · · 1 person
    • Pang William
      Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

      If we are honest to ourselves... ask when was the last time our faith put to test? In good time or in time of trouble? When was the last time we truly seek Him? In good time or in time of trouble? You may say... No, I seek Him in good time too. But your faith is not tested in good time, only in time of trouble. If there is no tribulation... how would our faith be tested? How many of us would live by faith? How many of us would still seek Him?

      Jesus said in Joh 16:33 ... In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." ... that our faith should not fail in time of trouble for He has made us overcomer of all tribulation, pains and sufferings. Now you know... for without tribulation, our faith is dissipated, for without faith it is impossible to please God. Tribulation is not from God but through it our faith is strengthen. The issue is not tribulation but faith!

      2Co 12:9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
      Tuesday at 7:55pm ·
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2 comments:

Anonymous said...

I don't think we are to pray for these things to come since God Himself said they would come; naturally and supernatural. Naturall because we live in a fallen world, Supernaturall because there is a fallen angel, our enemy who seeks to sift us as wheat and a LOVING God Who will allow such for our perfection in HIm KNOWING that Jesus has already overcome all and so we can and will! Our God Reigns!

November 22, 2010 at 2:26 AM
yaso said...

Certainly we don't pray for tribulation. Who would? But Jeff's point was if tribulation is from God to draw us near to Him then shouldn't we pray for it? It is an oxymoron to say tribulation, pain and suffering is from God yet we go to doctor for cure, yet we pray for healing.

November 22, 2010 at 3:30 PM

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