This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!: Is the law a must?

Joel Brueseke
The question was asked in Grace Folk, "Does everyone have to go through a time of law in order to understand and desire grace?" Below is my response.

· · · Yesterday at 12:59am

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- Joel Brueseke
  I tend to think that /ideally/, no one should have to have a time of law in order to understand and desire grace... especially Gentiles (most of us), who were never ever meant to be under the law at all.
  
  The sad thing is that over the years, the church has preached and taught law mixed with grace, and so many people are very confused about it, and think there is some "law" that is meant to be in the Christian life. These are the people (and there are many many of them, including me) who have the struggle with law and performance in their Christian life. But it was never meant to be.
  
  Jesus' "law" talk was always directed at the Jews, who were under the law. And very importantly, Paul's "law" talk was also directed toward the Jews, as he explained to them that there is one way to God for both the Jews (who had the law) and for the Gentiles (who didn't have the law) - and that is the blood of Jesus.
  
  Jews, who had the law, were to die to the law in order to come to Christ. Gentiles, who never had the law, never had a law to die to. :) They simply had once been considered "far off" from God, "being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise" (Eph 2:12), and were now "brought near by the blood of Christ" (Eph 2:13). Law never played a part in the Gentiles coming to Christ. Only the blood of Jesus. :D
  
  And so again, "ideally" a Christian should never have to go through a time of law, because the purpose of the law was never to help a person understand grace, but simply was to impute sin to the world. Christ has now come, and by His blood (not by law) has made the two into one (Jews and Gentiles). (Eph 2:15).
  Yesterday at 12:59am · · 9 people
- Jennifer H MacRae Howie Here endeth the first, and only, lesson. What more can one add?
  Yesterday at 1:03am ·
- Kelly Martin-Shirk as i read your words, Joel, i thought on our society as a whole. we are taught law - in fact, we sort of eat, breathe, live it.
  
  consider Santa - 'He's keeping a list, checking it twice... gonna find out who's naughty or nice' - if you were/are naughty you would get a bag of coals. and that is just the beginning.
  Yesterday at 1:40am · · 2 people
- Joel Brueseke Yeah, I hear you, Kelly. I guess what's being talked about in this particular question whether or not a person needs God's law in order to understand God's grace.
  Yesterday at 9:06am · · 1 person
- Pat Hux I've been saying for a long time the the church did us no favors by teaching law to show how bad we are/were. The gentiles got saved just fine without it.
  Yesterday at 9:11am · · 1 person
- Kelly Martin-Shirk Joel - i think i understand that - my view was that the law demands a certain action in order to 'see' grace - ergo, Santa and being a good boy/ girl to see/ receive the reward being a picture of that - whereas, the loving parent just desires to grace the child anyway - the child does not have to go through the obstacle course to gain the approval/ love/ grace of the parent
  Yesterday at 9:13am · · 2 people
- Joel Brueseke Yep indeed, the point was never coming to Christ by the law - especially for the Gentiles. I think Paul's words about the law being a tutor that led to Christ has been misunderstood. The law doesn't lead people individually to faith in Christ. Rather, the law was the ministry (of death and condemnation) that led to the ministry of Christ, which is the ministry of reconciliation.
  Yesterday at 9:15am · · 2 people
- Chris Kimmell I don't know what I need, nor do I know what another may need, yet my Father knows for each of us in our own uniqueness, that he created.
  
  No one gave me "law", so I created my own and it brought me to Grace. Still I have met a few, and it is very few, who seem to be born straight into Grace.
  
  hmmm go figure,,, ;)
  Yesterday at 9:19am · · 3 people
- Pat Hux well, when I met Jesus, I wasn't even looking for Him. I had no consciousness of sin and didn't cry and ask for forgiveness. I just saw Him and believed.... and that was 36 yrs ago.... must of stuck..!
  Yesterday at 9:21am · · 3 people
- Joel Brueseke
  Perhaps the 'purest' (for lack of a better word) example we can go to is the Gentiles in the early church. They had never been under God's law and they had never even known God's law. All they knew is that they had been excluded from thecommonwealth of Israel, and excluded from being part of God's family. They came to Christ, not through law, but through the blood of Jesus. They heard the good news that though they had once been "far off," they were now "brought near" by the blood of Christ.
  Yesterday at 9:22am · · 4 people
- Pat Hux Paul never mentioned the law on Mars Hill.... he used what they knew
  Yesterday at 9:23am · · 1 person
- Kelly Martin-Shirk i 'heard' His call in my heart - and went on a treasure hunt
  Yesterday at 9:24am · · 4 people
- Pat Hux I know a popular 'soul winning' method says you have to get people to see they have broken God's law and sinned before you can 'get them saved'. I personally think what they are doing with that is despicable..
  Yesterday at 9:33am ·
- Joel Brueseke I "get" Ray Comfort and Mike Seaver (lol), and I guess I wouldn't (personally) necessarily call it despicable, as I believe they think it really is how it's meant to be... but I no longer agree with them on that method. A few years ago, I did agree with them, because I also thought that the law was necessary for a person to come to Christ.
  Yesterday at 9:35am · · 2 people
- Chris Kimmell I think when any one says "there is method to get people saved" is despicable,,,,, but what do i know,, ;)
  Yesterday at 9:36am · · 2 people
- Joel Brueseke Glad to have come out of that thinking though!
  Yesterday at 9:36am · · 2 people
- Joel Brueseke LOL... tru dat, Chris. :D
  Yesterday at 9:36am · · 2 people
- Donna Tremblay What Chris said, but here in New England, the majority of us came out of the church of Rome, steeped in law, religion and the whole kaboodle. Funny how even the evangelicals that I thought I was escaping to were steeped in it too. I finally arrived in my middle age to see the Light. For me, there was no other route. All routes are unique, thank you Jesus, he has a customized rescue mission for each of us.
  Yesterday at 9:42am · · 3 people
- Chris Kimmell Roger that!! Mission accomplished by Bravo Delta. Lima Bravo out!!
  Yesterday at 9:45am · · 3 people
- Chris Kimmell time for work
  Yesterday at 9:45am · · 1 person
- Donna Tremblay You know, Joel , I think we have to thank Him that we don't HAVE TO go through anything to find him.
  Yesterday at 9:46am · · 4 people
- Chris Kimmell paycheck work,,, night folks
  Yesterday at 9:46am · · 1 person
- Donna Tremblay don't work too hard Chris!
  Yesterday at 9:46am · · 1 person
- Kelly Martin-Shirk Joel - i don't know who Ray Comfort/ Mike Seaver are - oh well.
  
  this is where i am today... Jesus has re-connected us with with Him/ Father/ Spirit - He brings us an invitation to join the dance - to receive the re-connection - no 'purchase' necessary - as in, we do not have to have done a blooming thing to receive the invitation.
  Yesterday at 9:49am · · 3 people
- Joel Brueseke
  I do want to reiterate what I said in my original post (my original response to the question). I said that "I tend to think that /ideally/, no one should have to have a time of law in order to understand and desire grace." I did make a point to highlight "ideally." :D I do believe that the way that God has it set up is that the law had a ministry (death and condemnation), but it's not meant to play a part in the life of a Christian. A Christian is meant to be "dead" to the law right from the get-go. I don't believe God Himself has us go through a "law period" in order to understand His grace.
  Yesterday at 9:50am · · 3 people
- Joel Brueseke Yes, what Pat said. :) I mentioned Ray Comfort because I knew that that's who she was referring to. I jokingly said "Mike Seaver" because Ray's partner in the Way of the Master ministry is Kirk Cameron, who played the part of Mike Seaver on "Growing Pains" in the 80's. :D
  Yesterday at 9:53am · · 2 people
- Kelly Martin-Shirk have a good evening, Chris! :)
  23 hours ago · · 1 person
- Kelly Martin-Shirk lovely, Pat - but he probably was no worse than any of the others i 'went' through
  23 hours ago ·
- Kelly Martin-Shirk all this reminds me of Jonathan Edwards
  23 hours ago ·
- Joel Brueseke Ah, yes... "sinners in the hands of an angry God!" Now /that's/ despicable. :D
  23 hours ago · · 1 person
- Pat Hux de-speak-able!
  23 hours ago · · 2 people
- Joel Brueseke What we were, was "sinners in the hands of a loving God."
  23 hours ago · · 1 person
- Kelly Martin-Shirk exactly, Joel - on both counts
  23 hours ago · · 1 person
- Pang William What is happiness to one... not knowing sadness? How can one appreciate riches... not knowing lack? What good is good without knowledge of bad? What good is Grace... if man is all capable?
  
  Blessed are the poor, the mourn, the meek, the hunger... The end of law is the beginning of Grace!
  23 hours ago · · 1 person
- Joel Brueseke Blessed are the Gentiles, who can know grace without ever having known the law!
  23 hours ago ·
- Kelly Martin-Shirk before grace, can't we know the emptiness... the lack... the poverty of soul without knowing the law?
  22 hours ago ·
- Kelly Martin-Shirk but... i do wonder, as we have been talking about it, if there is not something akin to the law in us all from birth?
  22 hours ago · · 2 people
- Carol Grace Robinson Really great comments guys!!!
  22 hours ago · · 1 person
- Joel Brueseke
  Let me take it back to Adam and Eve. I believe they knew "grace" as purely as anyone could ever know it... before sin and before law.
  
  I think of Abraham, who lived before the law of God, and who knew and believed the promises of God (grace) by faith, not law.
  
  Grace doesn't /need/ an opposite. :D Grace is grace is grace, and has always been God's way. It's like saying we need to know hate or fear in order to know God's love. Sure, there's a stark contrast, but God's love is God's love, and God's grace is God's grace, even if we've never known anything to contrast it with.
  
  My kids don't /need/ to know someone else's dad in order to know me. Sure, there is a great contrast between me and other dads, but they know me by who I am, not by who I'm not.
  22 hours ago ·
- Joel Brueseke
  I'm getting more deep into this than I planned... lol... but the original question is, I think, a question about whether or not people necessarily have to have a "law" period after having come to Christ. Again, I say that I believe that "ideally" that's not how it's meant to be, but I do agree that most people probably have some form of "law unto themselves" built into them that keeps them from fully experiencing the pureness of grace.
  22 hours ago · · 1 person
- Kelly Martin-Shirk ah Joel - i didn't see the need to have a 'law' period AFTER coming to Christ - i thought you said before Christ
  
  1 - i don't think it is necessary to have a law time before coming to Grace/ Christ or after
  
  and 2) - i too tired in the little gray cells to think any more about it :)
  22 hours ago · · 1 person
- George Christ Odero Great discussion here!
  21 hours ago via mobile ·
- Donna Tremblay
  When Kelly said: "i do wonder, as we have been talking about it, if there is not something akin to the law in us all from birth?" I keep thinking that when Adam fell, his mind fell into a law mentality, "I must do to be like God" and while the official law of Moses hadn't arrived yet, man entered into religion which is law, man producing something to be like God, when he already was. So I think that Kelly is right on, from birth, our birth as human beings, we enter this world system of performing for God to be like God, a law mindset.
  21 hours ago · · 1 person
- Pang William
  What is the purpose of the law... since the beginning in the garden?... Is it for man to keep or for God? If it is not for man... why did God planted it? Surely God knew man would fail... If man didn't hang around that tree... man won't had been tempted and sinned. If man didn't fall then what is the tree of Life for?
  
  The purpose of the law... "Thou shall not..." is not meant for man to keep but God... because the law is the ten... the tithe... the firstfruit... the sacrificial Lamb... the Love of God... the Christ!
  20 hours ago ·
- Donna Tremblay
  Here is my thought, Pang, on what the tree of lIfe was for. I think this is how it was supposed to happen. We were to grow in grace and knowledge in the garden with Father, Son and HS teaching us, but mostly Jesus teaching us. When we had matured sufficiently then we would eat of the tree of life AND the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I don't think the tree of life is an antedote for Adam's fall. And I don't think that we were created to fall. Adam clearly had a choice and made it, to say that God knew that would happen is almost to say that he made Adam choose, He did not. Man created the fall, God created man. In Him was light and no darkness was found, Adam created darkness through the fall by his being made in God's image he could form or create just as God could and he created fallen thinking or darkness of mind. Just my thoughts.
  19 hours ago ·
- Pang William ‎... because man failed by the law... therefore Christ can restored man by fulfilling the law. But much more than just man... we were redeemed as sons.
  17 hours ago ·