This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!: Can a righteous sin?

Saturday, October 15, 2011

Can a righteous sin?

Num 23:21 "He has not observed iniquity in Jacob, Nor has He seen wickedness in Israel. The LORD his God is with him, And the shout of a King is among them. ...

Were there sins in Israel before the cross? Yes. Did God see them? No. Why? Because they were covered by the blood of bulls and goats. Now the question is... After the cross are there sins in the Christians? Can a Christian still sin? ... Sensitive questions... haha

· · · Thursday at 8:53am near Kuching

David Vines, Jackie Hyatt Lacy and John P. Cwynar like this.
- Pat Hux Did Jesus do what He came to do? Take away the sin of the world?
  Thursday at 8:54am · · 2 people
- Pang William ‎Pat ... Certainly He did. But my question is... Can a Christian sin again?
  Thursday at 9:33am ·
- Pat Hux if he took away sin, then there is no sin.....no law by which sin is known.....
  Thursday at 9:34am · · 1 person
- Kelly Martin-Shirk didn't we discuss this last week? ;)
  Thursday at 9:34am · · 3 people
- Carol Grace Robinson That's a good question Pang......we know sin was in the world before the law was given, but not charged to man's account. But, Christ bore the penalty for all sin upon Himself.
  Thursday at 9:36am · · 3 people
- Pang William ‎Carol... that i know... but my question is... Can a righteous sin? And if yes... where is the sin come from?
  Thursday at 9:41am ·
- Pat Hux why do you ask? I don't see that in the NT. actually.
  Thursday at 9:42am ·
- Joel Brueseke We've already been through this. Not biting. :)
  Thursday at 9:48am · · 2 people
- Pang William I know we been here... indeed we been through almost every thing but somehow i feel something more in this. You know... revelation is built upon revelation... :))
  
  In OT... God does not see sin because it is covered... but in NT... Rom 4:8 BLESSED IS THE MAN TO WHOM THE LORD SHALL NOT IMPUTE SIN." ... My question is why won't the Lord imputed sin... if we can sin? May be you would say... Jesus has taken them away? But it said... it is not imputed, there is nothing to take away.
  Thursday at 10:11am ·
- Joel Brueseke Hamartano vs Hamartia. That's all I'll say.
  Thursday at 10:12am · · 1 person
- Pang William Can you explain?
  Thursday at 10:13am ·
- Jamie Fields No....according to 1st John....we are a perfected holoy priesthood in Him!
  Thursday at 10:14am · · 1 person
- Jamie Fields ‎*Holy
  Thursday at 10:16am · · 1 person
- Joel Brueseke I already did, in the last conversation on this. :) LOL
  
  Hamartia - the noun form of sin (the sin condition) was taken away. Through Adam, sin (hamartia - noun) entered the world, because all sinned (hamartano - noun - sinful actions).
  
  The difference is a sin condition vs. sinful actions. The sin condition was taken away. Amen. Halleluiah. Hooray! That doesn't mean that there isn't such a thing as sinful actions (hamartano). Ungodliness, unrighteousness, etc. It still exists in verb form, even though the sin condition (noun, hamartia) has been taken away.
  Thursday at 10:17am · · 5 people
- Joel Brueseke As one example, Paul - who knew very well that sin (hamartia, noun) has been taken away, used the word "hamartano" (verb, sinful actions) five times in 1 Corinthians, to describe the sinful actions of the Corinthian church.
  Thursday at 10:20am · · 3 people
- Joel Brueseke Sorry, I bit, even though I said I would not. :)
  Thursday at 10:23am · · 5 people
- Jamie Fields Joel I'm going to ahve to disagree with you on this one, the new resurrected us doesn't sin....and that's the real essence of us. :)
  Thursday at 10:23am ·
- Jamie Fields ‎*have
  Thursday at 10:23am ·
- Pang William How and why Hamartia is taken away and not hamartano?
  Thursday at 10:24am · · 1 person
- Jamie Fields that fallen old man that died with Christ might try to resurrect himself here and there, but he want get far...DEAD PEOPLE CAN'T SIN
  Thursday at 10:25am · · 2 people
- Joel Brueseke As I said to William in the former conversation that we had, I agree that the new creation-spirit that we are, does not sin. We have been "perfected forever." But we still live in these bodies that sin, because of the flesh. That's the hamartano that Paul addresses, and it's very real.
  Thursday at 10:25am · · 1 person
- Joel Brueseke You can disagree with me, and that's ok. :) I'm only giving the info that Paul gave, so you can disagree with him if you want. I disagree with him sometimes. :D
  Thursday at 10:26am · · 3 people
- Pang William C'mom it is not about who is agreeing with whom... but seek revelation. Still my question is how and why Hamartia taken away and not hamartano?
  Thursday at 10:32am · · 1 person
- Joel Brueseke They are two different things.
  Thursday at 10:33am · · 2 people
- Pang William The only answer i think is... the law is removed. No law, No sin... even though the action still there... agreed?
  Thursday at 10:37am · · 1 person
- Joel Brueseke No hamartia. But still hamartano.
  Thursday at 10:37am · · 2 people
- Carol Grace Robinson There is still a sin unto death referred to in I John........and they called a brother.
  Thursday at 10:39am · · 1 person
- Joel Brueseke One is a condition. One is an action.
  
  Hamartia is a condition that the spirit-being (the reality of who we are) was in.
  
  Hamartano are the actions that the body commits.
  
  Through the blood of Christ, hamartia was taken away, once and for all, forever and ever, never to be brought up again.
  
  But what has not yet happened is this: We have not yet been taken out of these corruptible bodies. One day, these bodies will put on incorruption. But for now, these bodies that we live in still are corruptible. That is where hamartano comes from / happens.
  
  The real us - the newly created spirit - has no sin (hamartia). But there is still such a thing that these bodies commit called hamartano - and it will be with us until we leave these bodies.
  Thursday at 10:40am · · 1 person
- Pang William Does God still see our hamartano?
  Thursday at 10:45am · · 1 person
- Joel Brueseke Of course He does.
  Thursday at 10:45am · · 2 people
- Joel Brueseke It's one reason why He disciplines us. (ONE reason).
  Thursday at 10:45am · · 2 people
- Joel Brueseke He hates to see us doing things that hurt ourselves and others. He loves to have us trust Him.
  Thursday at 10:46am · · 2 people
- Pang William Isn't our disciplines in Christ? If He sees my hamartano, should i too? If so... won't condemnation comes?
  Thursday at 10:48am ·
- Joel Brueseke A father's discipline isn't about punishment or condemnation. It's about what is helpful, what is edifying, for life.
  Thursday at 10:50am · · 4 people
- Pang William I'm sure He won't condemn me... but i will myself if i failed in harmatano. Is this edifying me?
  Thursday at 10:58am ·
- Joel Brueseke Why would you condemn yourself if your Father, who disciplines you, doesn't? :)
  Thursday at 10:59am · · 1 person
- Pang William Why not? It is very natural to feel down if you tried and failed. Or shouldn't I feel happy if i tried and passed?
  Thursday at 11:03am ·
- Joel Brueseke The world mainly knows a shame-based kind of discipline, which is not godly discipline at all. The Father's discipline (which means to teach - same root word as 'disciple') is love and grace-based, not shame based. He is forever drawing us to His love and grace. He knows not only our actions, but the root of our actions. He knows why we do what we do. He works to get to the root of it as He draws us to His love and grace and kindness.
  Thursday at 11:03am · · 3 people
- Joel Brueseke That's if for me for tonight. Grace and peace, all!
  Thursday at 11:05am · · 3 people
- Pang William Thanks Joel... it is being great learning for me :)) ... but i think i still have many questions... i leave them till next time... shalom!
  Thursday at 11:08am ·
- Steve Elsmore I find that with Hamartano we can repent, by which I mean have a change of mind. We allow the mind of Christ to teach us that that behavior is not edifying and decide that we don't want to do that anymore. All condemnation comes from the Father of Lies the Devil and it is the shame we feel that causes us to believe those lies (that God is mad at us and we can never do right, etc). If we fall we know that He loves us and will encourage us to good works and transformation.
  Thursday at 11:21am · · 6 people
- Kelly Martin-Shirk no disrespect meant - but is it possible that this can be over-thunk? ;)
  Thursday at 11:23am · · 3 people
- Pang William Still thinking... Though hamartia is removed and not hamartano and if we to live to avoid hamartano (sin action)... Ain't we gone back to the law? ... there comes sins and condemnation!
  Thursday at 11:28am ·
- Sharon Fryer Pang, you asked where does sin come from! (if we sin) Sin does NOT come out of our Born Again Spirit! But we still do wrong at times out of our souls/ which is, mind, will and emotions! Sin is usually emotional! This sin NEVER affects what Jesus Did for us! It will NEVER touch our Spirit!!! But you can certainly affect your own self and other people if you sin! My husband has been a Chaplin in the county jails and camps for over 20 years. He teaches and ministers to the inmates...There are many, many inmates that ARE BORN AGAIN...And unfortunetly many of them keep coming back to jail for repeated crimes. Drugs, Robery, and beating their wives, and abusing their children! My husband teaches them "who" they are IN Christ Jesus! He teaches the Full Gospel of "By Grace through Faith" He teaches them of the Victory that Jesus won for them! But they still have to make the choice! so does their sin change God's heart and mind for them? NEVER! But what about the sin against others???
  Thursday at 11:31am · · 4 people
- Pang William ‎Sharon ... The reason why those inmates repeating their crimes is because they attempt to avoid committing the same crimes again and by doing so... they fall back under the law... and thus eventually commit again.
  
  Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
  Thursday at 11:49am ·
- John P. Cwynar Thanks Sharon for sharing. As a counselor, I work with many victims of severe physical & sexual abuse. I am sure that some of the abusers were 'professing Christians.' A large part of this work is getting people to 'let go' or 'forgive' what has happened in the past. Only Grace can truly bring a person to truly forgive... to truly let go of the pain of the past.
  
  I would encourage those who are having this discussion, to put yourself in the place of a victim. Suppose I were to say to you... Jesus took away the sins of the world... there is no sin out there... no shameful actions. Your violent perpetrator was just missing the mark... nothing for him to be ashamed of... nothing to feel responsible for. In fact, because Jesus has already forgiven the jerk... you don't need to forgive him... it's already done... just smile like nothing ever happened.
  
  Jesus did not remove the presence of sin from the world. Just think of Corinth and then think of your city. What He removed forever by His finished work is the judicial consequence of sin before God. He destroyed it of it's power (law) to condemn us or control our lives, Hallelujah! The condemned, headed-for-hell flesh has been crucified with Jesus! Jesus is the once and for all Victor! But to deny the existence of sin in the world and in the lives of believers, is like trying to ignore (on theological grounds, of course) the 800 pound gorilla in the room.
  
  By the way... my comments here are not intended to condemn or shame anyone for their views... but I know I need to think outside my own theological box sometimes.
  Thursday at 12:11pm · · 9 people
- Angie Rupe Pang, I those inmates that are released into society and repeat their crimes, are not born again Christians but there are many who are getting saved in prison and they do not ever go back nor do they repeat the same offenses because Christ is in them and they are now a new creation. They can still sin but they choose not because their flesh no longer dictates to them what they should do. They are not now guided by the Holy Spirt!
  Thursday at 12:21pm · · 3 people
- Angie Rupe oops forgot to type believe after I lol
  Thursday at 12:22pm · · 2 people
- Angie Rupe This does not mean that they will never sin again, but the spirit is guiding them now and the flesh does not control them!
  Thursday at 12:23pm · · 3 people
- John P. Cwynar Amen, Angie ... sin is still an option that as believers we have the HS power & direction not to follow... it is still a choice.
  Thursday at 12:26pm · · 4 people
- Angie Rupe And if we fall into sin or temptation, (by our choice-flesh resurrects) the Holy Spirt is there to convict not shame us but He shows us the wrong (hidden or obvious to our heart) so that we can repent to God in the name of Jesus and we can continue living our life of freedom and peace because of His beautiful Grace! God is so amazing and so Good to us! :)
  Thursday at 12:30pm · · 3 people
- Sharon Fryer I hear you, John, and Really appreciate your sharing!
  Thursday at 12:30pm · · 4 people
- John P. Cwynar And lest anyone accuse some of us of being unduly "sin conscious" ... keep in mind that we were drawn into this discussion kicking and screaming all the way! (poor, Joel:)))
  
  Why is it that those who argue the most for not being 'sin conscious', are the ones who keep bringing it up??????????
  Thursday at 12:55pm · · 7 people
- Pang William
  ‎Angie... Truly i wish those inmates would never go back to prison anymore but you and i know this isn't so... Like Sharonsaid many came back. Indeed i wish i have the words to explain the things in my mind... but then i know even if i could... it still has to come by revelation.
  
  I hope you flow with me... We know Jesus has taken all the sins of the world away... but yet we see sins around. Then came Joel's explanation of hamartia (noun) and hamartano (verb). The first (noun) is no more but the second (verb) is still around. Then i asked if hamartano action of sin is still around and the choice is ours either to avoid or prevail... Then came my question... would it put us back to the law? If so... ain't we fallen from Grace.
  
  My view... is repent our mind... not only the hamartia but the hamartano is also no more... thus we have a totally sin free mind set... then we can truly break free... because it is no more (noun and verb) just as it is finished! Shalom!!
  Thursday at 1:29pm ·
- Joel Brueseke
  William, if hamartano was no more, then why did Paul use the word several times in his epistles to describe the actions that believers committed?
  
  Paul used the word hamartia (noun) many more times than he used the word hamartano (verb), and his use of the word hamartia was always in his plentiful descriptions of how Christ came to take away the sin of the world.
  
  Perhaps the fact that in English, we only see the word "sin," and not hamartia or hamartano (or other related words such as the much less commonly used hamartema), is why we "grace people" get stuck on hamartia being taken away. I mean, it's a great thing to be stuck on, don't get me wrong! :) But the early church, and anyone who knew the difference between hamartia and hamartano would have known that Paul was talking about two (or more) different things, while we only see one word, "sin."
  Thursday at 8:39pm · · 4 people
- Joel Brueseke I agree with Kelly that this stuff can be over-thunk. :) And it's not as if I go around thinking about this stuff all the time. But if people have only known one definition of "sin," and have not looked at all the scriptures and all the uses of words that are related to it, then I think it can be helpful to discuss these things.
  Thursday at 8:45pm · · 3 people
- Marie Louise Cassidy Joel and John great patience and great great teaching comments, I appreciate it as well as many other rich thoughts form all you that participated and even will thank the bratty Pang for making this possible ha ha ha!
  Thursday at 9:09pm · · 4 people
- Joel Brueseke
  Reading again a little more of the conversation, and William mentioned law and condemnation. We have somehow, in the grace community, gotten the idea that sinful behavior can *only* be defined by the law. We quote the scripture, "through the law is the knowledge of sin." But what does it mean? People had a knowledge of sin right from the moment Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil!
  
  As I mentioned in the last conversation, both God and people mentioned "sin" long before the law came. Two examples, one with God speaking and one with a man speaking:
  
  Gen 18:20 And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave..."
  
  Gen 39:9 (Joseph speaking) "How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?"
  
  Sin was in the world before the law came. What the law did was to *impute* sin to mankind. It didn't stop sinful actions, and in fact, "the law entered that the offense might abound." (BTW, here we have yet another Greek word, translated as "offense," which means "a lapse or deviation from uprightness"). What happened when Christ came is that sin, that had been imputed to man, was taken away. The law that imputed sin was nailed to the cross, and there is no longer a charge against us. Sin (hamartia) is no longer on our account.
  
  But this /did not/ stop sinful actions. It did not put an end to ungodly actions, or wicked actions. It did not stop people, even born-again, new-creation beings from committing sinful actions in their bodies. Our spirit (the core of who we are) indeed is without sin. It has been "perfected forever." There is no charge against it. And in fact there is no charge or condemnation against us when we, in our bodies, commit hamartano or "offenses," or wickedness, etc. It is still very possible for us (our bodies), because of the flesh, to do these things.
  
  I don't agree with the argument that born-again people cannot do these things. One of Paul's complaint to the "saints" (born again, new creations) in Corinth was that a man had his father's wife, and the church was glorying in this. There were also other sins among the people of the church, that Paul addressed. Believers can indeed do things that go against who they are in Christ.
  
  But unlike what we hear in the church, our goal isn't to "stop sinning." Our goal isn't to focus on sin, sin, sin all the time. Our goal is to know Christ, and to know our Father and to know the Spirit, and He teaches us and leads us through all of these things and so much more.
  Thursday at 9:11pm · · 7 people
- Marie Louise Cassidy Glad you came back Joel I had that stuck in my mind when I finished reading before, that sin was in before the law, another thing that popped in my head was Paul saying he did what he didn't want to do (the flesh issue).. any thought s on that? Again this thread has been a blessing to me, thanks again...
  Thursday at 9:14pm · · 2 people
- Marie Louise Cassidy I'm going to copy the whole thing to study it (the thread comments) I understand much better when it happens in a setting like this with questions and answers and different views that we see out there all the time, and nobody getting angry, intolerant, obnoxious and ultimatley stupid, amazing group, did I say thanks? :)
  Thursday at 9:18pm · · 2 people
- Tom NeSmith ‎:
  I have trouble differentiating sin from sin, sin and sin. When a single word is used to describe multiple things... it gets confusing. But... then, I don't have to worry about it... I just rest in God's grace... and don't think about it. Thinking about it smacks of works. On the other hand... if I'm thanking God for what He's done in my life... and that word comes to mind... it's okay. ;-)
  Thursday at 9:23pm · · 8 people
- Pam Burrell Kilpatrick
  There is a big difference between who I am and what I might do out of the old habits or old thinking. My Sin Nature was what Jesus dealt with on the Cross. If I sin (an action) the HS tells me that is not who I am and leads me into truth. BUT my actions are forgiven because I am not that old man any more. And I SURE MISS the mark a lot less now that I understand there is no condemnation to those in Christ. Whereas bull and goat blood given in sacrifice covered the guilt of sin for a period of time. All sin (an eternal work- and all encompassing work) was forgiven through the Sacrifice of Christ. BUT we have to appropriate that condition of right standing (righteousness) in Christ by faith and that appropriation or receiving gives us the indwelling Holy Spirit. I believe that faith gave Abraham right standing and those Jews who sacrificed animals in faith as well. Our CONDITION is the point. I had a long conversation with a UR friend who says all men are reconciled but not all are saved. That reconciliation happened before the foundation of the world. I sure can't see that one. She would not tell me if she believes salvation is possible after death but I assume that is her stand. I told her to be reconciled and to be saved through Christ ( in my mind they are the same) are available to all through Christ. Sorry about this rabbit trail.
  Thursday at 9:32pm · · 7 people
- Leopoldo Paul Solis I agree with you Pam. To be reconciled means to be saved. God forgives all but not until one receives that forgiveness he/she is not yet reconciled and saved. We cannot enjoy our forgiveness unless we receive it.
  Thursday at 9:38pm · · 9 people
- Lori Kibler
  Pam, you have some really good points. I started seeing a lot of people in particular on fb saying that all are reconciled to God. Something just didn't seem right to me so I started to study the verses and I realized through the leading of the Holy Spirit that these verses where Paul is talking about "all in Christ" etc. that he was speaking to believers. It's so important that we know the context of Scripture. Btw, I agree with you, being reconciled to God is done through Christ and if we are reconciled to God we are saved.
  Thursday at 9:48pm · · 3 people
- Tom NeSmith
  ‎:
  It gets down to being born-again... which is what happens when one accepts God's grace (and I was originally unaware of what I was doing when I first accepted His grace many years ago). Being born-again isn't a figure of speech. A person is actually born. What becomes of those who were never born-again is something I don't really need to think about... unless... maybe thinking about that would somehow cause growth.
  Thursday at 9:56pm · · 4 people
- Marie Louise Cassidy I heard it this way Lori and Pam, you tell me if this sounds right: "All are redeemed but not all are reconciled..." I thought it made sense
  Thursday at 10:32pm ·
- Marie Louise Cassidy Should have added Leo oops
  Thursday at 10:33pm · · 1 person
- Marie Louise Cassidy all are reddemed (the price has been paid for all) but not all are reconciled (saved born again accepted it)
  Thursday at 10:34pm · · 5 people
- John P. Cwynar Marie... Col says that He reconciled all things to Himself... on God's side all things... people, angels, satan are reconciled... but all have not or will not enter into that reconciled state willingly... our mission is to urge men & women to be reconciled to God... enter into it willingly.
  Thursday at 10:43pm · · 6 people
- Marie Louise Cassidy
  Ok the word is the word... so all are reconciled, all are redeemed but not all have accepted it and thus are born again, thanks to Tom aswell for adding the born again to this equation and staing the fact it's not a figure of speech. It's afact and a supernatural one... if you are born again you know it, plain and simple so tht BS that we're all going to Heaven no matter what doesn't fly with me at the moment as much as I loved to hear it when I did...
  Thursday at 10:47pm · · 3 people
- Tom NeSmith
  ‎:
  This is one of those questions/issues that doesn't affect me. I'm not going to change anything about my life based on this.
  But... I really sense that being born-again is not a figure of speech. It's literal. The born-again person enters into heaven. God isn't deciding who gets in... people themselves make that decision.
  
  What is the minimum one must do in order to be born-again... accept a free gift. What else should one do?... continue accepting what God offers freely. What must one not do?... cease to continue accepting what God offers freely (HS... and those niggly promptings). What must one know?... nothing. God makes known when necessary (I don't have to research). Can I do research?... sure... but it's a waste of time if it doesn't positively affect my walk.
  Thursday at 10:47pm · · 5 people
- John P. Cwynar
  Everything about salvation: redeemed, reconciled, born again or regeneration... even everything about sanctification is all a done deal 2,000 years ago. It is a present reality made for everyone. My choice does not change the reality.
  
  My choice only changes the reality for ME. I can choose to live in God's reality for man by believing Jesus. Or I can choose to live in the non reality or the lie of the devil.
  
  f I choose the latter, I will end up in the reality of hell, which is the reality created only for satan & his host. God never intended for any man or woman to go to hell... but if we refuse His reality of heaven meant for us... that is the only other option.
  Thursday at 11:04pm · · 4 people
- Joel Brueseke
  Paul and the early church knew the difference between hamartia and hamartano and the other 'sin' words, and in fact Paul brought up the various aspects of it, sometimes in depth, on various occasions, so it's my personal opinion that it's good that we understand these things too.
  
  Paul could have said, "you've received the free gift of righteousness, and you've been born again, partakers of the divine nature, one spirit with God," etc, etc (all true things), and he could have simply left it at that and said, "now go live!" And that would partially be true.
  
  However, he didn't leave it at that. :) He addressed the sinful behavior of the churches. He said things like, "by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh." He talked about various acts of the flesh and acts of wickedness and he told the church to not walk in those things, even though "all things are lawful for me."
  
  This is not about works-righteousness. This is about walking in our identity. It's about walking as the people we truly are, rather than being controlled by the deeds of the flesh. This is important stuff!
  
  Marie, it's my personal understanding that indeed, this is what Paul was talking about when he said I do the things that I don't want to do and I don't do the things that I want to do. He knew that what he "wants to do" is what the core of his very being wants to do. Christians don't "want" to sin. Christians "want" to do good and to walk in step with our Father. Those are our natural desires, based upon our new identity - our new-creation life that we live. But of course the flesh pulls us in other directions at times, so that we don't always walk according to the way we truly want to walk.
  Thursday at 11:17pm · · 2 people
- Joel Brueseke
  On the reconcilation issue, I've gone back and forth in my understanding/opinion of it, but I've pretty much settled on what I believe John is saying, or at least pretty close to it if not the same. "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them... now then... we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God."
  
  As I see it here, God has reconciled the whole world to Himself, and is not counting anyone's sins against them. However, to not have your sins counted against you is not the same as being made alive together with Christ. And so the call that Paul makes to unbelievers is to "be reconciled to God." In other words, God has reconciled you to Himself, through what He has done in Christ, and now you reconcile yourself to God. How does this happen? By grace through faith, of course. :)
  Thursday at 11:23pm · · 5 people
- Tom NeSmith ‎:
  Joel... Paul refers to what God told him... but that same word is being told to us by God directly. My biggest mistake was to start listening to people I thought had a greater understanding if spiritual matters.
  If I find an echo of what God tells me in what others are saying... fantastic!
  If not, I'll leave it to God to inform me. If that doesn't happen, I drop it.
  Thursday at 11:58pm ·
- Angie Rupe
  Pang, if for some unforseen reason, I fall into sin (from my flesh the weakness came and not by my spirit) I do not believe I fall out of Grace and into Law. I fall into my flesh! God does not remove His Grace from me. In fact, His Grace is what prompts me to see the error I'm committing, so that I can identify as sin, repent and get back up and continue walking righteously with Him because His spirit (Grace) guides me now! The reality is that until our Lord, Jesus Christ returns some of us may stumble into sinful behavior and some of us will not!
  Yesterday at 12:06am · · 7 people
- Angie Rupe The power of the law condemns and shames up but we as new believers in Christ, are now under Grace! (His covering, His redemption, His righteousness, His forgiveness)
  Yesterday at 12:07am · · 1 person
- John P. Cwynar Angie... I think Pang has fallen into something... perhsaps a deep slumber...:)))
  Yesterday at 12:08am · · 3 people
- Kelly Martin-Shirk for an additional view on sin, see my post of this morning :)
  Yesterday at 12:09am ·
- Angie Rupe He went nite nite! :)
  Yesterday at 12:09am ·
- John P. Cwynar ‎"Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling..." Thank God for un-fall-able Grace!
  Yesterday at 12:09am · · 4 people
- John P. Cwynar Yes... Kelly, you had a good definition that I had not seen before.
  Yesterday at 12:11am · · 2 people
- Kelly Martin-Shirk i was directing others who had not seen it to maybe take a look - thanks John for reading and commenting :)
  Yesterday at 12:13am · · 1 person
- Joel Brueseke
  Tom, that's why I tried to make it clear that it's my personal 'opinion' that this stuff is important. If it's not important for you, that's A-OK with me. :) But to me it's still important stuff, and I see the church of today is still dealing with these same issues. And the reason I continued in this conversation is really because I believe William has presented what he believes is a biblical perspective on things, and I have noticed that there is really much more to it, and so I have presented these other things for consideration from anyone who is interested.
  Yesterday at 12:26am · · 3 people
- Angie Rupe
  Yes, John P. Cwynar, it is by His Grace and His Holy Spirt dwelling in my heart that keeps me from falling and from desiring to please Him with my thoughts, words and my heart daily! The more I read and study His word, the more revelations about Him are known to me. What breaks my heart is how many people live lifes defeated because they have decided to reject His Grace! It is not a burden or as some say boring to live a life with Christ! Once I understood that God, Sovereign and full of Grace loves everyone and that everyone can have salvation (regardless of how many sins are in their present life) by simply accepting (believing in His son, Jesus Christ) and it didn't matter on their obvious performance (works), anyone could have Salvation in Jesus Christ (eternal life) and it was this simple! Wow! This revelation opened my eyes and the realm of understanding on Who God was completely changed in my mind and in my heart! The deception and lies were exposed and all the shame that ever kept me in bondage (no peace and joy in my heart) was lifted off! All glory to God! Hallelujah! I just want everyone to know how simple it is but the reality is many are still deceived and they are born again Christians!
  Yesterday at 12:29am · · 3 people
- Joel Brueseke
  I still do terrible stuff that hurts me and that hurts others. I don't want to just ignore it and say, "it's not important... I'm redeemed and accepted by God, so none of it matters!" :) I want to understand how God works through these issues with us, and I think Paul had a good understanding of it. Paul was the biggest champion of grace, and he explained it all so very well, and I personally have a much greater understanding of grace because of what he has written. In the same way, I understand a lot of how we can deal with sin issues through various things that he wrote.
  
  How much of your understanding of grace and of being made alive together with Christ, and of being a new creation, and of being born again, comes from Paul's explanations of it? Quite a lot, I'd bet. In the same way, I believe we can get a lot out of his writings about other issues that go along with life in Christ.
  Yesterday at 12:33am · · 5 people
- Jackie Hyatt Lacy Thank you all for your comments on this thread! Thank you Joel for "taking the bait" and responding to William's question! I know we have discussed this before but we have newcomers here who may be thinking about this for the first time! Besides truth is worthy of repeating!
  Yesterday at 12:35am · · 4 people
- Angie Rupe Amen, Jackie! I'm a newcomer and I very new believer too! :)
  Yesterday at 12:36am · · 3 people
- Joel Brueseke
  I do enjoy this type of conversation, but my hesitation to get into it this time was because of that very fact, that we had already discussed this recently in this group. Quite frankly I feared that I would be wasting my time... LOL... because I would only be repeating what I'd previously said, so I was content to let others talk it out. But I did soon realize that it's a worthy conversation to have, and I felt I had some good things to share in the conversation, and as you gals have said here, it's worth it all because of those who might not have discussed this before.
  Yesterday at 12:44am · · 4 people
- Angie Rupe
  I personally and honestly do appreciate Pang bringing up this point here. I know some people here get annoyed (I can sense it by their comments). They expect everyone to have the same understanding and view point and maybe even maturity level! I was very hesitant to join a group again for this reason but I do see a shift from what Grece Folk was (drama and conflict). I am humble by every teaching that is done in Truth and in Love. Thank you Joel Brueseke for taking the bait! lol. I have been truly blessed and I will be reviewing Romans and Hebrews for myself! God bless you :)
  Yesterday at 12:49am · · 5 people
- Angie Rupe Oopsies: I mean Grace! lol. I must be thinking of Grease the musical lol. I always have dance and music on my mind lol!
  Yesterday at 12:50am · · 7 people
- Carol Grace Robinson Angie, just wanted to mention this. William R. Newell has verse by verse commentaries of Hebrews and Romans which I thought were pretty well done. I'd read and study, then glance over the commentaries to see what he said.
  Yesterday at 2:40am · · 4 people
- Pang William After reading all your posts... I want to say i am sorry for put up such a sin conscious topic... and please forgive me for i meant no harm. Cheers...
  Yesterday at 8:22am · · 4 people
- LadyGrace Crow Hey, William I still learn a lot from these type of posts....some of us are still newbie to this part of grace. :)
  Yesterday at 8:24am · · 2 people
- Jackie Hyatt Lacy No need to apologize William! The fact that you did, proves you are a gracious man of God!!
  Yesterday at 8:39am · · 2 people
- Dawn Whittall it's really good to have these discussions even if on one level it discourages you to have to talk about sin again (lol) because it gives you great insight into how so many others are thinking and helps you be prepared to give a powerful answer when you are asked this stuff from time to time. I've been blessed reading :)
  Yesterday at 8:49am · · 5 people
- LadyGrace Crow Amen, Dawn! We need to have these discussions if we are going learn how to explain it to others.
  Yesterday at 8:54am · · 2 people
- Marie Louise Cassidy Thanks Joel ! I appreciate your ministry...
  Yesterday at 9:27am · · 3 people
- Sharon Fryer Pang, NO sin consciousness here! ;-)
  Yesterday at 9:28am · · 3 people
- Steve Elsmore Comment! I had to comment here because there were 99 comments and we just had to have one more... doesn't 100 just sound so much better?
  18 hours ago · · 5 people
- Kelly Martin-Shirk ‎;)
  18 hours ago · · 1 person
- John P. Cwynar Perhaps it would help if we all were unconscious for a period of time... yes, we could have an unconsciousness drill... starting right n
  17 hours ago · · 2 people

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