Wednesday, February 23, 2011

Is our everyday work... a work of faith or a work of the flesh?

Pang William
Is our everyday work... a work of faith or a work of the flesh? How do we determine the difference?
on Monday · · ·
  • Joy Aj, Cheryl Mudaly, Cathy Rheeder and 2 others like this.
    • Alan St Andrew
      ‎5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, 6 not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, 8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. Ephesians 6:5-8 (ESV)

      22 Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. Colossians 3:22-24 (ESV)
      Tuesday at 3:02am · · 2 people
    • Pang William Thank Alan, what if the master is wicked?
      Tuesday at 3:14am ·
    • Alan St Andrew That is between HIM and the Lord. We still work as to the Lord.
      Tuesday at 3:16am · · 2 people
    • Alan St Andrew That is between HIM and the Lord. We still work as to the Lord.
      Tuesday at 3:16am · · 1 person
    • Alan St Andrew ‎9 Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him. Ephesians 6:9 (ESV)
      Tuesday at 3:17am · · 1 person
    • Pang William If the wicked master wants you to lie about your products, what then?
      Tuesday at 3:23am ·
    • Alan St Andrew ‎18 So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20 for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.” Acts 4:18-20 (ESV)
      Tuesday at 3:32am · · 1 person
    • Alan St Andrew Where there is a choice between obeying a man and obeying Father..... hmmm..... which do I choose???
      Tuesday at 3:39am · · 2 people
    • Barry Hansen
      I think there is a difference between works of the Flesh and works of Faith. Adam was cursed with work, (Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.") Adams work was burdensome, he had to labor hard. Under Grace our burden is light, because of Jesus. The work we do is joyful. Matt 11:28-30 28“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
      Tuesday at 8:28am · · 2 people
    • Barry Hansen I think the litmus test, is if we find our work burdensome and out of duty we work under the flesh, if we work under Grace, we enjoy the Job. I remember JP saying that he enjoys preaching 4 or 5 times on Sundays, because Grace makes him joyful to do the Job, not because he has to but because he wants to
      Tuesday at 8:31am · · 2 people
    • Ditas Irene Lopez-Pangilinan
      ‎@William: if the wicked master wants you to lie, what would YOU do, as one under grace and forgiven through Jesus' blood? Will you be courageous enough to risk losing your job by respectfully telling him you won't do it because it is wrong and would actually cost the company more problems in the long-term? Or will you fear for your job and obey anyway, or at the very least, secretly disobey? I'm a writer and storyteller, and I can be a manipulative person. I won't be boasting when I say I will be able to find a way to obey the master and "lie" about the product and still somehow say the truth, keeping my job but destroying the company and the master's reputations in the process. But honestly, I'd rather lose my job than compromise, either by lying, or by agreeing with something that may not be actually wrong, but I don't believe it is according to God's standards. And I have quit jobs or lost positions because of this.
      Tuesday at 9:19am · · 1 person
    • John P. Cwynar The entire world system lies in darkness and is all of it based on a lie. Every job, every task we perform as part of that system is a lie. Even if we are telling the truth & not making outright lies, we are still participating in the lie and end up promoting the lie. This is where we need great wisdom and I don't think there are any easy answers.
      Tuesday at 10:26am · · 2 people
    • Pang William
      Ditas, I would quit because if a boss is out to lie is not someone I would associate with... 2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

      Another scenario... We understand grace and law don't mix... If your boss (a believer) is of law and wants you to obey every instruction he gives such as the way to think, to act and talk... another word you are binded by his law. What would you do?
      Tuesday at 11:37am ·
    • John P. Cwynar
      The biggest danger I see from my personal experience with being in the workplace is the deceptive controlling religious spirit prevalent there. A religious spirit in church is easier to discern. However, in the workplace we can become deceptively religious about our work. We go through the rituals of being on time, dressing appropriately, speaking appropriately (yes sir / no sir), make sacrifices to get ahead, working overtime, getting paid (rewarded), achieving a position, taking pride in one's position. With all these things, millions of people are controlled every day. It's just like the Isrealites making bricks in Egypt. They were very productive, but totally in bondage. And being the dupes that we are, we even develop a theology of work ethic to support the whole thing. The marvelous part of all this is that Grace still works in spite of the whole controlling mess.
      Tuesday at 11:50am · · 2 people
    • Pang William
      Another scenario... Lets say you are an artist... and for the past couple of years your income dropped due to market situation. And you believe in the Lord and have faith that things will improve. But the people around you think that you are wasting your time, telling you to go look for another job.

      Now, what do you do? Are you going to hang in there continue to believe He will provide... with or with project. Or to go look for another way out? They say God's provision is out there and you must go look for it... or shouldn't the provision look for us? They say you must find a job... if not how would the money come? The question is... do we really need to work to be blessed? Don't get me wrong... no need to work and don't want to work are two different things.
      Tuesday at 12:29pm · · 1 person
    • John P. Cwynar What are you doing without a job... are you an idiot!!!:) This is the attitude I refer to as a controlling religious spirit in the workplace mentality. You MUST get a job! It is what is expected. How dare you not make your share of the bricks?
      Tuesday at 12:33pm · · 1 person
    • Alan St Andrew Wasn't it Holy Spirit through Paul that said the man that doesn't work, shouldn't EAT?
      Tuesday at 12:35pm ·
    • John P. Cwynar I think both Jesus & Paul were great examples of men who had a trade and actually worked, but were not controlled by their workplace work.
      Tuesday at 12:38pm · · 1 person
    • Alan St Andrew Besides, John, don't you know we're just another Brick in the Wall?
      Tuesday at 12:40pm · · 1 person
    • Alan St Andrew And a Thick Brick, at that!
      Tuesday at 12:40pm ·
    • John P. Cwynar Perfect Bricks at that! (Alan, are you eating a sandwich... did you work for that... if not you should put it back!)
      Tuesday at 12:44pm ·
    • Alan St Andrew Zucchini bread. It was a gift, sort of a tip, for work well done!
      Tuesday at 12:45pm ·
    • Pang William My answer to my own question... we don't need to work to be blessed but we work to bless... So, do I need to go look for another job? No, but I still go for Him.
      Tuesday at 12:47pm · · 1 person
    • Alan St Andrew So then, a work of faith. Amen!
      Tuesday at 12:48pm · · 1 person
    • Alan St Andrew Fruit of the Spirit.
      Tuesday at 12:48pm · · 1 person
    • John P. Cwynar William... if you are going to answer your own questions like this, the rest of us are going to go on strike. You obviously can make your own bricks and don't need our help!:)
      Tuesday at 12:51pm · · 2 people
    • Alan St Andrew Wait, I'm still a little Thick! William makes BRICKS?????
      Tuesday at 12:52pm · · 1 person
    • Alan St Andrew Sorry, long time Jethro Tull fan! ;D
      Tuesday at 12:52pm ·
    • Pang William
      John, I always ask a lot of questions... I'm sure you and Alan too. But these questions hardly mentioned in our church and I think either they don't know the answer or they don't care. But I think many are confused about works especially the work of faith and the work of flesh. I was too... until He open my eyes. All come down to whether we do it for self or for Him. Thanks Alan for Ephesians 6:5-8 and Colossians 3:22-24.

      I can choose to continue to hang in there continue to believe He will provide, I'm sure He always provide. Though I have faith but object is self, it is still of flesh. Or I can choose to go look for another job. Though the act looks like no faith but if the object is Him instead of self, it has become the work of faith.
      Tuesday at 1:19pm ·
    • Pang William We are all a brick... but a brick by itself serves no purpose. Only when a brick is connected to other bricks... it becomes a wall. That's the purpose. That's the Church, the body of Christ in One in His kingdom!
      Tuesday at 1:36pm · · 1 person
    • Alan St Andrew William, to one way of looking at this, seeking work may seem to be "lack of faith," but one of the meanings of "faith" has to do with "fidelity," and "loyalty." Seeking work then becomes an act of faith, and opens doors to areas of ministry, bringing the Kingdom within you "behind the walls" of those locked in the darkness in their pursuit of material success in ignorance...
      Tuesday at 1:44pm · · 1 person
    • John P. Cwynar
      William, I agree with your assessment as to wether we do it for self or for Him. But I think the other dimension of the controlling spirit is important. Even if I choose not to work in the workplace, I still have a relationship to it. I am either in or out, or in and out. Am I in wishing I were out or out wondering if I should be in. If I am not in, how do I relate to others who are in and they to me. It can remain a controlling reference point. That's where I believe we need to be led by the Spirit into the freedom demonstrated by both Jesus & Paul.
      Tuesday at 1:56pm ·
    • Francois Du Toit Whatever is not prompted by faith (convinced of our true ID and innocence) it is reduced to flesh
      Tuesday at 2:00pm · · 1 person
    • Pang William Thank you so much my brothers, there is no rule when we are led by the Spirit such as this understanding. Even the work we do here in FB, we are connecting one another for His glory. We are building the wall... Some might not consider this work especially those think of work as 9 to 5 or receive a pay check at month end. It isn't what we do but what we think.
      Tuesday at 2:09pm ·
    • Gerrit Grobler
      I believe that whenever someone "tries" to do anything its flesh. So the more people "try" to walk in the Spirit, the more you can guarantee they're in the flesh. We are not supposed to do anything. We have died. Christ in us are supposed to operate. So we just need to rest in the fact that we have died, and His Spirit lives in us. Everything we do then flows out of His source of life. The root of flesh works is the person doing it: us. The root of faith works is the Person doing it: Christ in us.

      Gal2:20 I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 [Therefore, I do not treat God’s gracious gift as something of minor importance and defeat its very purpose]; I do not set aside and invalidate and frustrate and nullify the grace (unmerited favor) of God. For if justification (righteousness, acquittal from guilt) comes through [observing the ritual of] the Law, then Christ (the Messiah) died groundlessly and to no purpose and in vain. [His death was then wholly superfluous.]
      Tuesday at 2:12pm · · 1 person
    • John P. Cwynar You mean there will be no FB paycheck waiting for me at the end of the month... I'm outa here! Good word Gerrit... carry on! Good night family!
      Tuesday at 2:40pm · · 1 person
    • January Watchman Mvula
      Thanks all Brothers for your nice contributions, its really a difficult question which most of the people don't like to discuss. But I feel its very important to discuss about to enlighten each other and to develop a consensus as well as to broaden our faith. I feel that it could be better if we demarcate between the two, which are the work of fresh and which are the work of faith. In my understanding the work of faith are those which the Holy Spirit inspire to us and they are aiming at promoting our Christianity. While the work of fresh are those works which are aiming at satisfying our fresh and if we critically analyze them we can discover that there is no element of promoting Gods will. As Christians we need to ask for the guidance all the times that we can be in a position to have a through understanding on this
      Tuesday at 2:50pm · · 1 person
    • Pang William
      Gerrit, what you said is true... it is His work not our. I flow with that for three years but now He led me to another level of faith... If you said we are not supposed to do anything, then why are we here for? The grace folks will say be led by the Spirit but then many refused to move not knowing it is the Lord telling them to move. If we said... we must hear the Spirit, then we already make it a law. If we try... we already failed.

      There is no rule, no law, no right and wrong in Grace but only Right no wrong, only Love and hatred, only Light and no darkness. That's the law of the tree of Life. We are the Spirit, we are the Life, we are the Light... we move, the Light in us moves and darkness flees. Like you quoted Gal 2:20... that we were crucified with Christ, it is no longer we live but Christ lives. If Christ lives then where are you? No more! We are the Christs.
      Tuesday at 3:01pm ·
    • Pang William John... there is no need to wait for month end, your check is already in you. :))
      Tuesday at 3:04pm · · 2 people
    • Pang William John, actually I do agree with what you said about the entire world system lies in darkness and is all of it based on a lie... Jesus called each of His disciples out of their original work into His kingdom... and none went back after that.
      6 hours ago · · 1 person
    • Sally Kruger Faith is a spirit....Having the same spirit of faith ..I believe therefore I believe....
      5 hours ago · · 2 people
    • Sally Kruger I meant ..therefore I speak...
      5 hours ago · · 1 person
    • Murphy Zoe Lee
      Hi William, sometime ago our pastor posted this blog which could help you (http://www.stevenfurtick.com/personal-development/the-bible-verse-thats-wrong/). Below I have also copied some of the comments regarding this which I think is helpful:

      Murphy Zoe Lee: Amen pastor... my question is, when is doing considered work and not faith? where is the line drawn? anyone can help me with this? if possible, share some bible verse too... thx

      Peter Sze: I don't see the dichotomy. Often faith involves work, a moving on (as SF wrote) though at times it may also mean waiting... No need to draw line, move as the Spirit moves, stay and wait as He tells you to. Lines are the very thing that legalists draw!

      Murphy Zoe Lee: Good point pastor! Thx... got me thinking that 'works' in the bible is man working towards something in his own strength excluding God in the process... whilst working in faith means working just as hard but believing God is on our side working for us.
      In other words... working in stress vs working in rest

      Vincent Yap: But though we are in this world, we are not of this world. We are of the Kingdom of God and there is different system in God's Kingdom which is not of the world's system. We ought to find out God's system while we are in this world and operates within it. Then, we shall see the meaning of minimum efforts, maximum results. Working hard is not enough. One needs the favor and blessings from God, besides wisdom. The Bible says that we have the mind of Christ and whoever lacks wisdom, let him ask God. Soon, we'll see that it is God who wills and work in us and through us and when that happens, we shall experience effortless abundance. While we do work cos the Bible says he who does not work shall not eat and such a person is worst than an infidel, we do not need to strife or toil but work in rest. There is a very thin line between the meaning of working hard and striving or toiling and if we are not careful, we can easily fall back into the curse of Adam in all the things we do while in this world. While I do work while in this world, I rather have the favor and blessings of God through the finished work of Christ on the cross and work in rest to reap and receive the abundant blessings of God than to work hard in strive and toil. What about you ?

      Vincent Yap: While Moses was asked by God to be still, he was also asked to raise the staff in his hand before God opens the Red Sea. I believe God had asked Moses to be still or have rest in his heart, mind and soul and to have faith or believe in Him. While having said so, Moses is not to do nothing which most of us would think most of the time. Moses was to raise the staff in his hand and by doing so, he affirmed his faith in God and one of the greatest miracles in history took place, the opening up of the Red Sea for the children of Israel to cross on dry land from the pursuing armies of the Pharaoh. Such is the work (or act) of faith which opens heaven and brings heaven to earth and clearly distinguished from the work of the flesh where God is never in the picture. Our Heavenly Father is so so good that He does not merely wants to work miracles and bless us in our lives but He wants us to participate and to be a partner in the working out of miracles and blessings in our lives. He wants us to be part of what He does and is doing and to receive even more of the abundant of miracles and blessings in our lives. Without God, man cannot and without man, God will not. And yet our part is so small (just like the raising of a staff in the case of Moses) but the result is Great and Mighty (as in the opening of the Red Sea). As such, I doubt the raising of the staff by Moses can be called working hard. Another example is the fall of the wall of Jericho and the feeding of the five thousands by Jesus. What did the disciples do ? They just hand out the bread and the fishes to the people and yet, when all were full, there were twelve basketful left overs. Such abundance in Christ. There is hardly any hard work on the part of the disciples and yet their small participations in partnership with Christ brings about yet another great miracle. That's minimum efforts, maximum results.
      3 hours ago · · 1 person
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