Tuesday, September 14, 2010

Is the Lord's Prayer still for us today?

Tina Willis Let's talk about the Lord's Prayer, in which Jesus taught his disciples to say, "Forgive us our sins" (Luke 11:4). This is a request - an asking for forgiveness. It is not a claiming of what one already has. So how does the Lord's Prayer fit in with one-for-all forgiveness? Continued....

September 14 at 3:44am · ·
  • You, Malou Lim, Cathy Rheeder, Darlene Pitre Foux and 26 others like this.
    • Tina Willis
      We can't disregard the words of Jesus! But how do we understand his words, given that neither Paul nor Peter nor John - nor any other apostle - advocates asking for forgiveness as a daily routine for believers? The answer lies in examining the context of this prayer, its content, and its intended audience.

      Jesus warns his followers to avoid meaningless repetition of lengthy prayers. He said babblers are not heard because of their many words (Matthew 6:7). So the disciples naturally want a model for "good" prayer. What we see today in many churches is the repetition of the same prayer Jesus offered the disciples. Yet do we even realize what we're praying for?

      Most Christians know that the Lord's Prayer contains an appeal for forgiveness. But Jesus tells his audience to ask God to forgive them only to the same degree that they've forgiven others.

      The prayer isn't merely, "Forgive us our debts." It's more specific than that. Jesus prays "Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors" (Matthew 6:12). This prayer might be paraphrased like this: "God, take a survey of my life and my track record as a forgiver. Then give me the same type and amount of forgiveness I've given to others."

      What was the reaction of those who heard Jesus praying in this way? Did it excite them? Did it free them from guilt? Probably not. Jesus was deliberately showing his Jewish listeners the futility of seeking total forgiveness under the Old. If a person operates under a conditional religious system, they can only receive what they earn or give to others.

      As with other harsh teachings of Jesus, some have tried to explain away the stringency of the Lord's Prayer. Some suggest that we Christians are forgiving people and therefore we tend to forgive others just like God does. So some claim there is no conflict between this prayer and passages in the epistles. But Jesus makes his intended meaning clear as he concludes the prayer, "For if you forgive others when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your father will not forgive your sins." (Matthew 6:14-15).

      Jesus is certainly not saying, "Since you are such a forgiving person..." On the contrary, he's setting up a black-and-white condition for his listeners to be forgiven. They'll be forgiven if they forgive others. they won't be forgiven if they don't forgive others. In fact, they'll be forgiven to the same degree to which they forgive others.

      Now compare these words with Paul's statement in Colossians 3:13. The apostle writes, "Forgive as the Lord forgave you". The Lord's Prayer and Paul's exhortation are incompatible. Jesus is calling us to forgive so that we an be forgiven, while Paul calls us to forgive BECAUSE we've already been forgiven!

      According to Jesus' teaching, everything rests on our shoulders. We must forgive so that God will forgive us. According to Paul, God has already been taken the initiative. We've already been forgiven, and we're called to pass it on.

      So how can Jesus' teachings and Paul's teachings be in opposition to each other? Weren't they both teaching under the same New Covenant?

      The Naked Gospel ~ pg. `57-159
      September 14 at 3:44am · · 3 people
    • Sylvia Hart Amen and amen!
      September 14 at 3:45am ·
    • Tom Lawyer Hi Tina, Nice to see another Bold Christian.
      September 14 at 3:47am · · 1 person
    • Colin Lagerwall ‎......Weren't they both teaching under the same New Covenant ?
      Nope, the new covenant started after the cross
      September 14 at 3:48am · · 3 people
    • Tina Willis AMEN Colin!
      September 14 at 3:49am ·
    • Jeannie Jacobs Amen Colin!
      September 14 at 3:53am · · 1 person
    • Mark Boyce
      There had to be a change of covenant. Jesus was teaching under the old one. His blood had not been shed yet, and no covenant can be established without the shedding of blood. The cross, the cross, the CROSS! A paradigm shift took place!

      "Behold. I make all things new."
      September 14 at 3:57am · · 5 people
    • Naomi Lang'at Pliz continue with the discusiøn i want to learn
      September 14 at 3:59am · · 3 people
    • Allison Ake hmmm I don't want to disregard the words of Jesus, but how do I ask for forgiveness when I all ready stand forgiven?
      September 14 at 4:00am · · 2 people
    • John P. Cwynar News Flash: Jesus fulfilled the "Lord's Prayer" (actually the 'Apostles Prayer') by His victorious death and resurrection. It was He who hallowed the Father's Name and caused His will to be done on earth as in heaven. He has become our daily Bread, He has delivered us from evil, He has become the forgiveness of our sins and along with this given the grace to forgive others, His kingdom has come and the Father has received all glory. It's a done deal...Thank You Jesus!
      September 14 at 4:02am · · 14 people
    • Penny Koh Amen. The Lord is Great. Forgiveness is meaningful.
      September 14 at 4:05am ·
    • Lori Ellis Coates Thank YOU Jesus><,>
      September 14 at 4:05am ·
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    • Cindy Byrns
      Christians still sin -we still need to appropriate what was accomplished on the cross.
      NT - James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
      September 14 at 4:06am · · 2 people
    • Cindy Byrns ‎1 John 1:9
      If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
      September 14 at 4:09am ·
    • Bonnie George
      I still have trouble accepting this teaching fully. I admit I'm still learning.

      Last day I had this discussion with my Pastor about the Lord's Prayer. The part where Jesus says "Forgive me as I forgive others"... I asked him whether that means that, if we don't forgive others God wont forgive us and so we lose our salvation.... Pastor told me that the problem is with connecting everything to salvation. He said, "Its a fact that, we are Sealed for the day of Redemption, but it does not mean that if we sin we do not face the consequences for those sins on this earth." The consequences can range from a troubled heart to physical pain. But God can forgive in a way so that he saves us from those consequences too.. but that is only if we are willing to forgive those who sinned against us , so as to not even wish for them to have any consequences for what they did.

      Is it possible to go to God and ask him to save us from the consequences of what we just did without being able to forgive those who have wronged us?..

      To put the Lord's prayer into context.. It was said as a reply to his disciples who asked him to be taught how to pray. Jesus was living in the Old Covenant age when he spoke those words but its hard to believe that what he was teaching in that passage is old covenant. I believe that the Lords prayer is still relevant in our lives today and is something we need to be doing..
      September 14 at 4:09am · · 1 person
    • Colin Lagerwall Allison, Jesus said many things that were Old Covenant - what He was doing was INTENSIFYING the exposure of a system that was condemned, so we would realize (really realize) that we just can not do it, that we do need a covenant that HE WOULD KEEP, not us. We are recipients of the new covenant, we are beneficiaries of the will that Jesus received from His/our Father (joint heirs with Christ)
      September 14 at 4:09am ·
    • Fidelis Chawawa Longwe FIRST AND BIG THING A PERSON SHOULD KEEP IN MIND IS LOVE.WITHOUT LOVE YOU CAN NOT FORGIVE,THAT IS WHY JESUS TOLD HIS FOLLOWER THAT THE BIGEST COMMAND IS LOVE.WHERE THERE IS LOVE THERE IS NO EVIL.
      September 14 at 4:11am ·
    • Christopher Huszar Wow, John, I have never thought about it that way but you are BANG ON RIGHT!!! :)
      September 14 at 4:11am · · 3 people
    • Bonnie George Jesus didn't say this .. He taught it... be begins with "This, then, is how you should pray:".... He didn't say this, then is how you should pray till I die!
      September 14 at 4:12am ·
    • Tina Willis
      AMEN! I now think back to when I confessed each and every sin and imagine God saying ~ "What sin beloved? I poured the fire of my holy vengeance and righteous indignation on my Son until I was fully satisfied. He bore your sins, your judgment, your curses and you must see them on His body so you will know they cannot remain in you because I CANNOT punish you for the punishment Jesus already paid on your behalf. Tina, your sins and lawless deeds I SHALL REMEMBER NO MORE. Your sins are as far as the East is from the West! I have thrown them into the sea of forgetfullness. My Son said, 'It is finished.' Rest in His finished work."

      Woo-Hoo, glory to God. Thank you Jesus that I AM indeed forgiven of ALL: past, present, future. And because I am established in this glorious truth, sin has NO dominion over me! AMEN!
      September 14 at 4:13am · · 7 people
    • Colin Lagerwall Bonnie, the truth is, if I know I am forgiven, if I really understand Grace and God's goodness to me, the love and value He places on me, how can i possibly hold anything against someone who is equally loved and valued and adored by my Father ? This is the new covenant !
      September 14 at 4:14am · · 3 people
    • Cindy Byrns so what do you feel those scriptures are saying -as they are clearly New Covenant?
      September 14 at 4:15am ·
    • Tina Willis
      Do we sin (action) yes of course, but God does not see the sin, nor does he impute the sin to us... He says the reason we cannot sin is because the incorruptible seed of Jesus abides in the moment we're born again.

      1 Peter 1:23 ~ having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

      1 John 3:9 ~ Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

      "This does not point to our actions/flesh, but to our spirit and how Father sees and judges us; RIGHTEOUS!

      1 John 4:17 "...as He is so are you in this world."
      September 14 at 4:16am · · 3 people
    • Bonnie George Colin - How can you hold something against someone? Believe me you can... because you are still flesh and you still sin. Correct me if I am wrong
      September 14 at 4:16am ·
    • Tina Willis
      ‎1 John 1:9 ~ At first glance, this well-known verse appears to muddy the waters concerning once-for-all forgiveness. In many books and articles on the topic of forgiveness, this verse often serves as the foundation on which the author's belief system is constructed.

      Theologians and Christian authors will often agree with John that "your sins have been forgiven on account of Jesus' name" (1 John 2:12). But later you find them essentially saying that confession is needed to "cause" God to forgive you. The problem is that both statements can't be true at the same time. EITHER WE'VE BEEN FORGIVEN, OR THERE'S A CONDITION FOR US TO BE FORGIVEN.

      To resolve this dilemma, some have proposed the following: Christians are forgiven eternally in God's heavenly record books. However, unless Christians keep short accounts with God through daily confession of sins, they can't experience God's cleansing during life on earth. Hence, they claim that 1 John 1:9 is the believer's "bar of soap" to maintain daily fellowship with God. And they use terms such as judicial, patriarchal, and forensic as they delicately dance around the reality of once-for-all forgiveness and push the idea of a two-tiered forgiveness system in which eternally God is satisfied, but right now we somehow maintain our own daily cleansing through a confession ritual.

      I frequently come across this line of thinking in which 1 John 1:9 is the one and only hallmark verse. But we know we shouldn't develop theologies based principally around one verse. It's important to recognize that this verse stands as the ONLY one of its kind. No other verse in the epistles appears to place a conditional "if" on forgiveness and cleansing.

      So if there was a method for maintaining daily cleansing, the Romans were apparently unaware of it. If there was a prescription for keeping short accounts with God, the Galatians seemed to have had no exposure to it. If there was a need to ask God for forgiveness, the Ephesians were apparently not privy to it. Similarly, the Corinthians, Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians also seemed to have missed this teaching.

      If there were a DAILY method to maintain good status (fellowship) with God through ongoing confession of sins or please for forgiveness, wouldn't you think it'd be mentioned in at least ONE epistle? Did God accidentally leave it out? Certainly NOT!

      CONFESSION CLARIFIED: Let's clarify an important point. The meaning of confess is "to say the same as" or "to agree". Believers should agree with God on ALL accounts... not just about sins but about everything. Although we don't confess our sins in order to receive new portions of forgiveness and cleansing, we should still agree with God concerning the folly of sin. we're his children, and it is only His ways that fulfill. We're designed from the ground up to agree with Him, depend on Him, and live from Him.

      But it's equally important to recognize that we don't impel God or put him into motion through our confession. He's NOT waiting to dole out forgiveness or cleansing. We don't need to keep "short accounts" with God, since he has destroyed the record book!

      God has taken away our sins. He remembers them no more. As believers, our forgiveness and cleansing aren't dependent on our memory, our confession, or our asking. Our forgiveness and cleansing are solely because of the finished work of Jesus Christ.

      THE "OTHER" CONFESSION:
      What about James 5:16? James talks about confessing our sins to each other and praying for each other. But he's saying we should listen to each other's struggles, offer counsel where appropriate, and pray for each other. The context of James's exhortation to confess our sins to each other has nothing to do with God's forgiving or cleansing us.

      confession to trusted friends and to God is healthy. It's normal and natural to talk about your struggles with people who care about you. The indispensable truth to grasp, however, is that confession does NOT initiate cleansing in your life. We've already been cleansed "once for all" through the onetime blood sacrifice that needs no repenting.

      Let's be honest about our struggles, but let's also be clear about what the cross accomplished. The Catholic goes to a priest and the Protestant thinks he does better by appealing directly to God. but any system that doesn't factor in once-for-all forgiveness is intrinsically flawed.

      God doesn't want us to think that human priests apportion forgiveness to us. Nor does he want us to envision his doling out forgiveness from heaven on a "first come, first serve" basis. Instead, he wants us to ascribe real meaning to Jesus' declaration, "It is finished!"

      Only then will we turn from sins for the right reason. Our motivation shouldn't be to obtain forgiveness in return. We're ALREADY forgiven and cleansed children of the living God! Our motivation should be the fulfillment that comes from truly being ourselves. AMEN!

      The Naked Gospel
      September 14 at 4:19am · · 4 people
    • Cindy Longest
      I am so glad that when I came to Jesus and asked him into my life he excepted me and threw my sins all of them past present and future as far as the east is from the west to not be thought of again... I only confess now that I am righteous and free from sin, because (1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
      I am forgiven!!!!
      September 14 at 4:21am · · 2 people
    • Bonnie George
      What will do you if in a fit of rage someone among you just happened to kill someone?

      Would you go to God and say " Lord forgive me for what I did.. I know I did something very wrong. I don't want to go to jail. Please help me.."

      Those verses mean if you want to say that prayer. You need to able to forgive others first if they do the same sin to you. If you think that someone needs to go to jail because he killed someone you loved then you need to go to jail too... This is just a very aggressive example, it can also be applied to much smaller sins ( smaller consequences too)..
      September 14 at 4:21am ·
    • Debra Arnold Gonzales
      Ok ya'll, show me if I am wrong here......I STILL sin....(no doubt) but now, I THANK God that he has forgiven me when I sin now, since the cross of Christ has covered my past and future sins, instead of ASKING God to forgive me?
      Not to be redundant, but I do not still 'ask' God to forgive me because of the finished work on the cross....I simply 'thank' Him because of the finished work on the cross...????
      September 14 at 4:23am · · 5 people
    • Tina Willis
      Cindy, this is one of the BEST explanations that I've read that will answer your question to posted to Colin about this scripture being in the New Covenant. It's lengthy, but I promise you, you will be blessed!
      ~ If you were to pull a "prodigal son" routine on a parent, how do you think they would react? You may recall that the prodigal son asked for inheritance early so he could enjoy life in the fast lane: "Dad, I was wondering if I might cash in on your will before you die?"

      Good luck with that one today, right? It's just not done. You may end up with some cash in your hand, but it wouldn't be from the will. The attorneys would nip that in the bud. It's not illegal to cash in on a will unless the author of the will is believed to be dead. Interestingly, this is a point made in Hebrews.

      Hebrews 9:16-17 ~ In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody had died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.

      Why all this talk about wills, the legal system and inheritance? Here the writer is drawing an analogy between a will going into effect and a covenant taking effect. In fact, the terms will, covenant, and testament are translations of the same Greek word.

      The writers analogy and play on words serves to make and important point. Just as a will isn't in effect without a death, a covenant doesn't go into effect without a death. Meaning the New Covenant did not begin at Jesus' birth but at his death.

      As you may imagine, this point carries radical implications. First the New Testament doesn't actually begin in Matthew 1. In fact, it doesn't begin at any page in the Bible. It begins at the point in history when Jesus' blood was shed.

      No blood was shed in the first chapter of Matthew, and no sacrificial death was carried out in the manger. It was not our Savior's birth that changed everything. It was his death that inspired the apostles to declare the message of "out with the old and in with the new."

      As Paul puts it, Jesus was "born under the law, to redeem those under the law"... Galatians 4:4-5. So Jesus lived for 33 years on planet Earth while those around him still operated under the Old, not the New *.

      Where would we look, then, to see the New? the first effects of the New are evidenced in the book of Acts at Pentecost. The apostles' letters to the church instruct us about life under the New.

      The Naked Gospel ~ pg. 79-80

      * SIDELIGHT NOTE ~ pg. 230: As Galatians informs us, Jesus was born under the law. As Hebrews tells us, the Old wasn't replaced by the New until Jesus's death. Therefore, the gospels are a history of Jesus' interactions with Jews BEFORE the New goes into effect. Any belief system that doesn't take this into account will leave a Christian bewildered. Trying to mix Jesus' teachings directed to Pharisees and zealous Jews with the epistles will inevitably result in confusion.

      Jesus tells his audience to cut off their hands, to pluck out their eyes, and to be perfect just like God. He tells them that their righteousness must compete and win against the Pharisees'. He says that they must first forgive others in order to be forgiven. In short, Jesus is DISCOURAGING his contemporaries as they seek to achieve righteousness through the law. He does this so that he can later grant them perfect righteousness as a gift through his death and resurrection.

      Continued from The Naked Gospel, pg.80:

      THE TRUE BEGINNING: When we attempt to mix Old with New, we end up with a contradictory covenant of our own invention. This is where I lived for years. Since there were a few elements of the New in my imaginary covenant, it didn't kill me right away. Instead, if afforded me a slower death.

      I had adopted a belief system that was essentially a balance of Old and New. I neither suffered under the stringency of the entire law nor enjoyed the bliss of unconditional favor. For that reason it would be years before my framework for relating to God would finally take it's toll. (Paul, this is exactly what happened to me, Tina. I received Christ as my Savior 17 years ago and the first 7 years were great, then gradually I started feeling like I was dying a slow miserable death as he describes in the previous paragraph. It didn't happen overnight, it was very gradual and it was because, little by little, I was getting fed the law along with grace. God hates mixture. It nullifies the finished work of our Lord.)

      As you read this, you may be thinking, "Well that's not my problem. I have never struggled with whether or not I am under the law. I've always known better." That may be true, but that was true for me too. I would never have said that I needed to adhere to the Jewish law - far from it! It wasn't the law of Moses that was holding me hostage; it was my own modern-day form of law that I was trying to live out.

      Having raised my antennae toward the Christian world around me, I intercepted the subtle message that there are requirements to remain in God's favor. This collection of "Thou shalts" - read your Bible, share your faith, participate in a lot of "church" - was measuring stick by which I determined my worth and standing. These criteria served as a concrete way of determining whether or not I was in right relationship with God.

      I had already accepted the work of Christ as the means to heaven. but it was my approach to daily living that was beating me up. Law as an everyday operating system was doing its work.

      Continued from The Naked Gospel, pg. 81: SET ASIDE: If we're under a New Covenant, then what about the Old one? Is there still a place for if in our lives? What do the Scriptures say? Hebrews dismisses the notion of mingling the two:

      Hebrews 10:9-10 ~ Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

      Through the New, we find our standing as holy children of God. The first (Old) covenant was set aside because it made no one perfect. After all, it was a performance-based system, and no one could perform in a way that met its standards! Imagine walking on eggshells your entire life as you try to do everything written in the law. How overwhelming! For that reason, the Old is now obsolete. it has been set aside due to our inability to cooperate with it:

      Hebrews 8:13 ~ When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

      Hebrews 7:18-19 ~ The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

      What does the writer of Hebrews say? The Old is "weak and useless" in its attempts to perfect us. Today, we have a better option... the NEW! This new system introduced through the death of Jesus Christ actually works. It places us in perfect standing even though we don't perform perfectly. Only the New can we genuinely draw near to God.

      When I'm feeling distant from God, it's because I've measured myself and have come up short. This leads me to believe that God must be measuring me by this same standard. So I end up with the false conclusion that he's distant from me. Under this logic, how would I get close again? Obviously, the only option would be to achieve in a way that I haven't achieved previously.

      But the Scriptures are clear: there's only one way to get close to god - through the New Covenant. any other way is a counterfeit that is invariably rooted in ill-conceived parallels with human relationships and driven by moment-to-moment feelings.
      September 14 at 4:29am · · 1 person
    • Cindy Byrns I don't feel distant from God -we had a two -way discussion this morning. I would say I more agree with Debra. To me just by thanking Him -you are appropriating the cross.
      September 14 at 4:37am ·
    • Colin Lagerwall ‎"....Jesus tells his audience to cut off their hands, to pluck out their eyes....
      It's interesting how those that promote obedience to Jesus' words tend to turn a "blind eye" to these particular verses :)
      September 14 at 4:38am · · 2 people
    • Garry Knoetze ‎@ John...that was an awesome word. The Lord's prayer fulfilled by Jesus. I'd never heard that.
      September 14 at 4:38am · · 4 people
    • Tina Willis AMEN John P. Cwynar... that is TRUTH!
      September 14 at 4:40am · · 1 person
    • Tina Willis Debra, yes, I acknowledge when I miss the mark (sin) and I thank Him that I'm forgiven. Amen.
      September 14 at 4:41am · · 1 person
    • Arlene Warren John i absolutely agree with that. Also we must remember that Paul's encounter with Jesus was after the Resirection. God's will was done.
      September 14 at 4:43am · · 3 people
    • Michelle Eevette Mims Lewis The Lord's Prayer given by Jesus as an example prayer, because the disciples had asked Him, "Teach us how to pray." It is by no means a prayer that God honors by us reciting it word for word. That the prayer as an outline and use your own words from your heart and pray God's Word with it. There you have POWER!
      September 14 at 4:43am ·
    • Pang William
      Hi Tina, The Lord's prayer is a prayer for those... before the cross. In verse Luk 11:2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins, For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one."

      Now, we who are in Christ after the cross should pray: ... Our Father in heaven, Holy is Your Name. Your kingdom came, You will is done on earth as in heaven. Thank You for giving us our dairy bread, and thank You for forgiven us of our sins, for in Christ we also have forgiven everyone who sinned against us. And neither temptation nor evil one against us shall prosper. In Jesus' Name, Amen!
      September 14 at 4:47am · · 12 people
    • Lina Rema DominicSana Amen Pang! We are not to live from confession to confession, but from faith to faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work. Thank Lord Jesus!
      September 14 at 4:50am · · 3 people
    • Colin Lagerwall
      Tina, this is such a valid post, thanks for bringing it up !!
      I want to just add a side note here : Our relationship with Father, Son and Spirit is just that, a relationship. If we think "legal", we tend to think: If I do "this", the consequences are "that", so the whole forgiveness thing in a legal context becomes an exchange (which has been done)

      However, relationally, if I mess up, I do apologize (to my wife, my children, my friends, etc, and to my Father as well. It's a normal aspect of good heart-felt relationships. My forgiveness is not dependent on the asking, I am forgiven.. but out of my heart, because of love and the feelings I have for God, and knowing the feelings He has for me and others, it's just "normal" to say "I'm so sorry, I made a real mess up there, didn't I"
      It's no longer a "criminal" issue that demands legal justice, that has been "Done", but it's now one of heartfelt relationship with my Dad.
      September 14 at 4:50am · · 3 people
    • Cindy Longest Love it Pang!! Truth!!!
      September 14 at 4:52am · · 2 people
    • Tina Willis Colin, glad I posted it too, you know why? I've been a believer for 17 YEARS and I've just learned this. My goodness, being bound by the law about killed me and I flat out told God I was done. Then he showed me all about His Son's DONE! Talk about freedom! I want ALL my Brothers and Sisters in the Lord to walk in that same freedom! Amen ~
      September 14 at 4:54am · · 6 people
    • Colin Lagerwall
      Yes Tina, it's an awakening that is occurring across the globe, the gospel is being told "like it is". Be prepared to have MANY paradigms blown right out of their sockets, things you wouldn't even have dared let your mind go to !! The Gospel is indeed VERY good news, because we have a VERY good God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      (How do you go...Whooot- Whoooot !!!)
      September 14 at 5:00am · · 4 people
    • Lina Rema DominicSana
      Amen Tina! Confessing our sins all the time will make us only more sin-conscious. But knowing that we are under Jesus' waterfall of forgiveness will keep us forgiveness-conscious. And knowing that we are forgiven of ALL our sins will give us the power to reign over every destructive habit and live a life of victory!
      Jesus, however, died on the cross ONCE and FOR ALL. When we were born again, we became a living stone and God place us right under the waterfall of His Son's blood. Hence, every thought we have that is amiss, every feeling that is not right, every action that is not correct, is WASHED AWAY! We are always kept CLEAN and FORGIVEN because of the continuous cleansing of JESUS BLOOD! AMEN!
      September 14 at 5:01am · · 2 people
    • Tina Willis Colin... close enough... WOO-HOO! I love your Whoooot-Whooot too, it's like a combination of the two! LOL : ) Thanks for sharing, Bro~ ♥
      September 14 at 5:03am · · 1 person
    • Roy Bowden
      Very well constructed argument and some very insightful points were raised and questions asked. may I humbly submit a few points.

      Firstly, Jesus preached into an old Covenant situation and mostly tried to show the Jews (Who he came to minister to) that they fall short by trying to attain a righteousness of their own. he will always say...."one thing you lack" Our self effort is "Flthy rags" in Gods sight.

      There are many issues that are raised in terms of what Jesus said...for example, he commanded the lepers to offer sacrifices for their healing, something that we would not consider today since we are no longer under the bondage of the law but under Grace.

      Secondly we are a NEW creation (kainos...something altogether new and completely different) and are credited with the GIFT of righteousness by what He did for us. The new Covenant didn't start at the Cross it started on Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out.....on all flesh.

      James talks about confessing our sin one to another...because that is the right thing to do. If I hurt you in any way...my new nature compels me to ask your forgiveness. How easy it would be if we considered that everything we do....may require a humility to apologise if we are wrong. That will make us think carefully before we act. That process is about acting in the spirit and not the flesh. That is why Paul constantly urged us....Renew the mind....

      John talks about confessing sins and "He is just and Righteous to forgive all sin"
      Don't forget the context. John was writing to Gnostics, who believed that sin does not exist and he was refuting that stand point. The Gnostics believed that salvation comes by knowledge (Gnosos)

      In no other place after Pentecost...does confessing sin come up, except those two places.
      We get a package deal when we die to (NOT SIN) but THE Law...when we are Baptised....so that we can marry another. Jesus.

      I once saw a statement that shocked me a bit...
      If what Jesus said...contradicts what Paul said...listen to Paul, as he was given instruction directly from Jesus.

      God Bless you all. I love the hunger for truth and remember if there is any confusion Jesus will reveal the truth himself, either through the Scriptures or by a spokesperson.
      That is not me by the way, I just tell it as I see it. Ask Jesus to show you and he will guide you into All Truth.

      Amen brothers and sisters.
      September 14 at 5:12am · · 3 people
    • Colin Lagerwall
      And the beautiful thing resulting from grace, is real, genuine love, straight from the heart, not the "acts" of love that the law produces. And that is the sum total of the work of God in our lives - We love, because we are RECIPIENTS of His love without measure, so much so that it just HAS to overflow - My "cup runs over" becomes a reality, not just a hopeful dream - this is the Rivers of Living water that Jesus spoke of, it's the same River that brings healing to the nations spoken of in Revelation - Let the Knowledge of the Truth spread across this world, as the waters cover the sea !!
      September 14 at 5:18am · · 5 people
    • Tina Willis
      Lina, reminds me of that sweet story JP wrote in his book about the little boy who was poor and had no toys... one day he found a beautiful stone and before going home he would bury it under the dirt. Each day he would retrieve it, he would have to wash it off in the stream. Then one day, instead of burying it, he wedged it between two rocks, right between a steady flow of a waterfall. That night, the stone experienced a continual washing and it didn't have to be cleaned anymore.

      What the little boy did with the stone initially can be likened to what happens under the old covenant. Each time you sinned, you had to be cleansed. But before you knew it you would sin again, and you would have to take your sin offering of either a bullock or lamb to the priests to be cleansed again. Some believers still think that this is our covenant today, but Jesus' blood is FAR greater than the blood of bulls and goats. His blood bought us ETERNAL forgiveness.

      When you were born again, you became a living stone and God placed you right under the waterfall of His son's blood. EVERY wrong thought, every feeling that is not right, every action that is not correct is washed away. You are always kept clean and forgiven because of the continuous cleansing of Jesus' blood! AMEN~
      September 14 at 5:19am · · 1 person
    • Debbie Fowler
      I once heard a teaching on that prayer that made a lot of sense to me. To accurately repeat the teaching I would have to remember what was said about the language of the text and I don't recall how it was laid out.... but bottom line, their is an implied continuation at the end of the prayer as at the beginning.

      As we read it:

      " 'Our Father in heaven,
      hallowed be your name,
      your kingdom come,
      your will be done



      on earth as it is in heaven.
      Give us today our daily bread.
      Forgive us our debts,



      as we also have forgiven our debtors.
      And lead us not into temptation,
      but deliver us from the evil one." (NIV)

      As it should be read (please know this is from a teaching I heard and just sharing.)

      Our Father in heaven,
      hallowed be your name,
      YOUR kingdom come,
      YOUR will be done,
      on earth as it is in heaven.
      YOU give us today our daily bread,
      YOU forgive us our debts,
      as we also have forgiven our debtors.
      YOU lead us not into temptation. (God NEVER tempts men!)
      YOU deliver us from the evil one.

      Sorry I am so forgetful to provide the specifics. But, this has stuck with me for years.
      September 14 at 5:21am · · 1 person
    • Tina Willis Roy Bowden, Amen & Amen.
      September 14 at 5:22am ·
    • Bonnie George I am glad we don't need the bible anymore... We have the Naked truth! Im sorry guys, but I see you have chosen to completely ignore my point of view. Its alrite, just don't forget to send me an email when you decide to question somethings you believe to be the absolute truth!
      September 14 at 5:24am ·
    • Tina Willis Bonnie, please go before the Lord and ask Him for yourself if there is any truth to what has been shared in this thread. Lord, thank you that you desire for your children to grow in knowledge of your glorious truth. Give us all greater revelation of your Son's finished work. Amen.
      September 14 at 5:28am · · 1 person
    • Bonnie George There is some truth in what all of you are saying I totally agree, but that's not all the truth. Did you read my second comment. I have tried to explain what Jesus meant by that prayer. tell me what you think about that? why ignore?.. do you think I am the devil? seriously?
      September 14 at 5:33am ·
    • Bonnie George
      When Jesus said cut of your eyes and hands He did not mean it literally... Of course he didn't, whats so confusing about that? He was implying remove anything and everything from your life that causes you to sin, even if it is very important to you. e.g. Father, mother, wife, kids, hobbies, habits, etc... cut them off.

      For e.g. If your dad invites you to watch a porn movie next time to visit him for dinner, get rid of that relationship....it is a hard thing to do, but the words of Jesus are as simple as that.

      The most precious things on your bodies are your eyes and hands with reference to the scripture. HE calls you the apple of his eye.. and your names are written on the palm of his hands.
      September 14 at 5:40am ·
    • Roy Bowden
      I sense that you have some issues Bonnie, that you are struggling with. There is a price to pay on earth for what we do. We have eternal redemption and forgiveness of sin, by what Jesus did. Finished, not by what we do or have done. But there is a justice system in place here on earth that also condemns or acquits us.
      And it is fallible.

      We strive to be like Jesus, but we are not him. We struggle and the reason some struggle more than others is because of one thing....unbelief. Compared to Jesus, we don't measure up.

      If I go around killing people, firstly. I would expect to be questioned as to whether I am IN Christ or not. There is no Love in Killing.
      God knows my heart, and if I repent before him (An unsaved murderer) he is just to forgive. If I keep doing it, well my heart is seen by God and He will Judge.

      Funny thing though, and I must admit I struggle with this...I have seen many Christians whose loved ones have been brutally killed, who have met the killers and forgiven them. By his Grace....
      I don't ever want to be in the position of deciding whether I can do that or not.

      How about the statement...Take up your cross and follow me.

      Can anyone seriously do that. I doubt it.
      That was Jesus with a sense of humour, I suspect.....OK so you think you can do this...ok take your cross and follow me...if you can....

      Life is a journey Bonnie, enjoy the ride....he is on YOUR side.

      God Bless.
      September 14 at 5:42am · · 3 people
    • Bonnie George when I say get rid of that relationship i mean... try to speak sense into him, and then avoid him and then pray for him. But dont make the mistake of committing the sin along with him in order to maintain the relationship is what i meant..
      September 14 at 5:42am ·
    • Judy Lawrence Tina, I have just recently found the Lord's prayer was in the garden, just before He was taken away, John 17:21, That they all may be ONE in Us.
      Praises to our King.
      September 14 at 5:43am · · 1 person
    • Tina Willis
      Bonnie, why would you ask such a question, "Do you think I am the devil?" Of course not! I assumed you read the comments that were made which I felt already answered your question. Jesus's ministry was to His own... the Jews, who were under the law. It is critical that one understands why God gave the law. The law is holy, just and good, but it will NEVER sanctify, justify or make one good. It was given to show man that it is impossible to keep and for their need of a Savior.

      Colin, above, said it well.... Jesus said many things that were Old Covenant - what He was doing was INTENSIFYING the exposure of a system that was condemned, so we would realize (really realize) that we just can not do it, that we do need a covenant that HE WOULD KEEP, not us. We are recipients of the new covenant, we are beneficiaries of the will that Jesus received from His/our Father (joint heirs with Christ)

      John C. above said it well... Jesus fulfilled the "Lord's Prayer" (actually the 'Apostles Prayer') by His victorious death and resurrection. It was He who hallowed the Father's Name and caused His will to be done on earth as in heaven. He has become our daily Bread, He has delivered us from evil, He has become the forgiveness of our sins and along with this given the grace to forgive others, His kingdom has come and the Father has received all glory. It's a done deal.

      Roy B, above, said it well... James talks about confessing our sin one to another...because that is the right thing to do. If I hurt you in any way...my new nature compels me to ask your forgiveness. How easy it would be if we considered that everything we do....may require a humility to apologise if we are wrong. That will make us think carefully before we act. That process is about acting in the spirit and not the flesh. That is why Paul constantly urged us....Renew the mind....

      God bless you, Bonnie.
      September 14 at 5:45am · · 1 person
    • Paul Kidd Look forward to the rest.
      September 14 at 5:46am ·
    • Paul Kidd As paul harvey said: we'll wait for the rest of the story:).
      September 14 at 5:47am ·
    • Bonnie George
      Ok answer these two questions and I am done :)....

      1. What would you do if someone in a fit of rage acted in violence and accidentally killed someone you love. What kind of feelings would you have for him? Would you hate him? Would you want him to go to jail?

      2. What would you do if you in a fit of rage acted in violence and accidentally killed someone you. What kind of feelings would you have for yourself? Would you hate yourself Would you ask to be sent to jail to jail?

      Or would you ask God to help you out from facing the consequences of what you just did. would you say.. god i didn't mean to do what i did.. please help me. And will God Help?

      If you need to pray that way you need to be able to feel the same way for that other person who killed you loved one. Do you get what I mean... thats all that Jesus says... You cannot have double standards for yourself and someone else. thats all that Jesus meant.. Nothing to do with salvation.
      September 14 at 5:55am ·
    • Roy Bowden
      Sorry Bonnie to disagree....Jesus was pointing out how the law had been watered down by the Pharisees to make it achievable.
      He meant to show how Holy God is and how far short we fall. The Law said cut your hand off, in fact some countries still practice that.
      Jesus was saying...The law says do not commit adultery, but I tell you, if you look with lust, you have committed adultery....because the heart was not pure.....Do not kill...but if you say...Raca...(Fool)...you have already killed. The heart is wrong.
      We operate from a position of Love in all that we do.
      From that place we dont kill, hate, steal, covet....etc...not because the law says so but because it is not part of our new nature...

      BUT....when we fail....(Look at a beautiful women with lust, steal a pen from work, or fill in the blank...) he has already forgiven us and we turn to him and say....Lord...that is so not my new nature....Thank You Lord that You have forgiven me. I repent of that (Tashuvhar Change the way that I think, or renew the mind ....Metanoia...Return to Grace)
      Those are the Greek and Hebrew words for repent....

      He says....There sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.
      It is Finished.
      Praise God.
      September 14 at 5:56am · · 3 people
    • Bonnie George if you and someone else commit the same error... both face the same punishment.. you cannot be asked to be exempt from your consequences while you seek punishment for the other person.
      September 14 at 5:57am ·
    • Bonnie George you cannot ask**
      September 14 at 5:57am ·
    • Tina Willis Roy, well said. Can't add more to that. Amen.
      September 14 at 5:58am ·
    • Bonnie George Yes I agree with what you are saying with those two verses about salvation and murder because its clear, He is comparing very clearly.... but u can't put the same interpretation everywhere.
      September 14 at 5:59am ·
    • Lina Rema DominicSana Yes Tina, I read that sweet story JP wrote in his book about the little boy who was poor and had no toys to my children over & over again. They loved it! And they're understand what it's mean forgiveness of sins. They just simply believe. Praise the Lord!
      September 14 at 6:27am · · 1 person
    • Tina Willis Lina, may we all see the glory of His Grace through the eyes of a child. AMEN!
      September 14 at 6:29am · · 2 people
    • Lina Rema DominicSana Yes & Amen! All glory belong to HIM. Hallelujah!
      September 14 at 6:30am · · 2 people
    • Alvina Branchaud You all just answered some of the things that was in my mind! Im ever learning..... Pang thank you for your comment......Tina thank you for posting this. ok ok I might still be a baby but Im still Chrit's babe! I needed needed needed to see this!
      September 14 at 6:34am · · 3 people
    • Tina Willis Alvina, Amen, you're ears are opened to hearing the truth! Let the Holy Spirit, who dwells within you, lead you into ALL truth! He is your Teacher, your Wisdom, You Guide, Your EVERYTHING! Amen ♥
      September 14 at 6:43am · · 2 people
    • Monica Oliver
      Also ask yourself this: Does scripture record any of the disciples or apostles praying this "Lord's prayer"? The disciples didn't pray until Jesus commanded they do so before He was taken and even then they didn't stay awake long enough to pray. While Jesus was here in human form the disciples had no need for anything. This is the same Jesus who pulled money out of a fish, the same Jesus that fed thousands on a few loaves and two fish...After the cross as my brother Colin so eloquently put it the prayer was fulfilled........
      September 14 at 7:00am · · 1 person
    • Bonnie George so we don't need to pray, great :)
      September 14 at 7:03am ·
    • Pang William
      Dear Bonnie, I understand your question... If someone committed a crime like murder shouldn't he feel sorry, shouldn't he go to jail? My answer is yes. Because we are still subjected to the law of the world, the law of our country. If he admitted his wrong act before the judge he might receive a lighter punishment.

      To understand the talk here about the confession of sin, we need to understand sin has two different aspects. One is called the realm of sin and the other is the act of sin. We were all born in the realm of sin (from Adam) and when we accepted Jesus, we were transfered to the realm of righteousness in Christ. This realm can never be changed. So if this man who committed murder is a believer in Christ, he is still righteous in Christ and his act of sin cannot change him back to the realm of sin. But because he is still live in this world and so will be subjected to the local authority law and punishment and also to the person and the family and friends of that person he committed the act. He needs to seek forgiveness from them.

      So when we say we don't need confession of sin meaning that doesn't change the realm we are in. God still see us righteous in Christ regardless of our acts. But it doesn't mean that it is ok to sin. The reason we against confession of sin is because many churches still believe they need to confess their every sin to be right with God. And by doing so he will eventually be living under the consciousness of sin and thus the same sin will continue to occur. I hope I have answered your question. Amen.
      September 14 at 7:05am · · 4 people
    • Monica Oliver
      The conversation was clearly about the Lord's prayer. There are always those who take a portion of a response and run with it. To say no one has to pray is simply refusing to rightly divide. We pray without ceasing. We do not repeat the Lord's prayer over and over because Jesus has fulfilled that prayer.Again, I ask where in scripture do we find where the disciples fell on their knees and recited this prayer? We don't. Where in any of Paul's epistles does he recite it? He doesn't. Paul's prayers are laid out in each epistle imploring us to reach for a better understanding of the Lord's love. We are living in grace after the Cross not before it. That is the difference. We do not pray ceremoniously to impress others. We talk to God whenever and wherever we are because His Word says we can come boldly with our requests to God. Not through a priest, not behind a veil but direct conversation with God almighty wherever we are! Yes we pray. But we do not follow formulas. We do not repeat the same things over and over. We pray as the Holy Spirit leads us too in all sincerity.
      September 14 at 7:14am · · 3 people
    • Bonnie George Oh Monica I wasn't running away with part of it.. I totally understood what you were saying.. and I did not say we have to ceremonially repeat the Lords prayer.... But let me ask you.. What do you pray for? What did you pray for this morning? Just curious.. tell me then Il tell you what i meant
      September 14 at 7:18am ·
    • Bonnie George Jesus rebuked them for falling asleep if you missed that part... you sounded like it was ok for them to fall asleep....
      September 14 at 7:25am ·
    • Debbie Fowler
      I was watching some documentaries on 911 the other day. One of the men going down on one of the planes asked the operator speaking with him if she would say the "Our Father" prayer with him, and she did. This has nothing to do with interpretation of the scripture, it is my thoughts....sometimes, I think when we are facing something so big our minds go blank, we draw on something familiar and comforting to bring our focus to the Lord. Psalm 23 is another one of those passages so many people know by heart it is easy to unite and speak it together. When I was a teenager, I had a scripture song....He brought me into His banqueting table, His banner over me is love..... that would instantaneously come to my mind and I would start singing it when something unexpected hit me and I would feel helpless. It helped to bring my focus back to my Savior where I found comfort in times of trouble.
      September 14 at 7:33am ·
    • Bonnie George
      ‎@ Pang I agree with what you said and what everyone else is saying about confession of Sins and everything else.. I honestly do... But what I am saying is that the Lords prayer has nothing to do with confession of sins and salvation. It has nothing to do with going to heaven or not going to heaven. It has nothing to do with loosing our salvation if we dont forgive others.. Jesus Christ is talking about consequences of the wrongs we do to others.. Nothing else... It is a trick of the devil to confuse our minds to think that this prayer is old covenant. If you look deeply at the prayer.. isn't it what we all pray each day. we might not repeat the same words but this prayer covers all aspects of life doesn't it... please dont be deceived.
      September 14 at 7:42am ·
    • Bonnie George
      It is such a wonderful prayer....

      Jesus wants us to glorify his name first...

      Let His will be done on earth... As it is already done in heaven.

      Jesus wants us to rely on him for our daily bread.... ( not for the year's provision).

      He wants to free us from the consequences of our sins daily too.. as we admit that those have wronged us need not face any consequences for that.. He simply states we cannot have double standards... the way you forgive people who sin against you, the same way i will forgive you.. meaning.. If you want others to face some consequences for what they did to you.. then you must also face consequences for what you do. In other words.. Jesus Christ is asking us to forgive completely. ( not even desiring them to pay for it or learn from what they did)...

      He wants us to ask the father to help us not to lead into temptation. He will do it.. but he wants us to ask too :)

      And he then reiterates... If you don't forgive, then how can you be forgiven? This forgiveness has nothing to do with the cross... Do you know what Jesus did forgive sins even before the cross? was this enough for eternal redemption? No. he did not condemn the prostitute even before he died... that did not mean he didn't have to die.

      When our Lord forgives us we he has the ability to save us from the consequences of what we did too, like the way he saved the prostitute from being stoned... otherwise there is no point in being asking for forgiveness daily.
      September 14 at 7:55am ·
    • John P. Cwynar As a counselor, I know how difficult it is for people to forgive. I am talking about child abuse, spouse abuse, reckless murder, etc. I empathize with those who have been so maltreated that for them to forgive is an impossibility. I'm so thankful that Jesus fulfilled this prayer. So thankful that He has forgiven me and that His Grace alone enables us to do the humanly impossible task of forgiving another.
      September 14 at 10:07am · · 3 people
    • Tina Willis Amen John.
      September 14 at 10:09am ·
    • Debra Baker
      I commend you, Tina for bringing this discussion. It is just such contradictions as this mis-taught doctrine that causes such confusion in the religious world. The true good news, (gospel) gets muddied and nullified. We know who the author of confusion is. He is subtle and crafty and I can imagine he loves it when such falsehood is taught; such as having to keep yourself cleansed from sin by daily confession.
      Praise God that the truth is Jesus bore ALL sin on Himself 2000 years ago, and the wrath of God was poured out on Him and satisfied forever. I ws 50 years old and had grown up in the church hearing so many messages on this very thing. They taught you are saved by grace and then you sanctify yourself through confession and repentance. This is what leads to "schizophrenia". I pray for more and more religious people to get a revelation of this truth. We are forgiven!!! We just must receive the gift. John 3 16.... When you really get this message, you will no longer need to be religious. I have come to the place where i sincerely say, I hate religion. If you say this or do that you will get this result, etc. NO! If you know Christ Jesus and you are IN HIM, you are in relationship. It is spontaneous and Spirit led. What FREEDOM!! No longer do you need to recite a prayer or make a confession. In Him we live and move and have our being. period!
      September 14 at 10:57am · · 3 people
    • John P. Cwynar ‎"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." I just noticed that Paul does not say: "Love is forgiving." More impossibly he says: "it keeps no record of wrongs..." I can't do that. Again, only something Grace can do in my life.
      September 14 at 11:42am · · 3 people
    • WhatJesus Says as dirt appears, we clean it. relying on yesterday's cleaning would pile up the dirt
      September 14 at 12:35pm ·
    • Tina Willis
      Debra, I couldn't agree with you more... I too HATE religion. When I first heard the "true good news" I was shocked, then it brought me to tears as I finally understood why I felt like I was dying a slow miserable death for over 10 years. THEN.... I downright got pissed off! MAD. SO MAD!!! MAD doesn't EVEN begin to describe how I felt, and I didn't even know who to be mad at! I was just mad at the situation. I obviously couldn't be mad at the church... they're the blind leading the blind who don't know the truth themselves. Yes, the enemy is indeed the author of confusion, but his ugly lies have been exposed and hence this conversation! LET THE TRUTH BE HEARD, GLORY TO GOD! Remove the blinders off the religious pharisees of today, Lord, Amen!

      Thank you for sharing your awesome words! We are truly living in exciting times, God is moving in a mighty big way, beloved Sis!
      September 14 at 2:57pm · · 1 person
    • Tina Willis ‎@What Jesus Says... there is NO dirt on me. That's saying His white robe that He "gave" me is dirty. I'm squeeky clean because of the blood. One time sacrifice... one time bath. Amen!
      September 14 at 3:00pm · · 2 people
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